John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The Ceann Comhairle included me in those who were late. I do not believe I was late. I think I was on time. If previous speakers some of whom had bleated quite loudly earlier about speaking time had shown up, I was very much on time.

There is a question here of the trust of Government. It may sound trite enough to say - there is so much perceived mistrust of politicians or whatever - but I think the public to date has been well served by its Government in the face what is the first global pandemic in a century. Sometimes we lose sight of that - the extraordinary times in which we live calling for extraordinary measures which are taken in real time within which there may be the occasional glitch - because we are dealing in real time.

These temporary measures have my wholehearted support. I want to set that out straight, in part to set out my position in relation to the legislation which I support as it makes sense to me in these extraordinary times but also to allow me make a couple of points, not of criticism but critical in relation to the measures that are being put forward by the Government.

It is unfortunate, if one is a publican who abides by the law and whose employees abide by the law and who might be watching now, that he or she sees us discussing, in relation to his or her livelihood and business, legislation, entitled the Criminal Justice (Enforcement Powers) (Covid-19) Bill 2020, implying, as that title does, that there is widespread breach and wholesale disregard for the public health laws, and, of course, this is not the case.

We ask why are these laws temporarily needed, and it has been covered by Deputies. There is no point in rehearsing it in detail. It is because there has been a number of breaches by irresponsible premises owners which has had cause to bring the entire licensed trade business into disrepute. That is unfortunate.

I think of my own constituency, for example. I would have liaised with the Garda superintendent in my constituency over the period of the closures and when the food pubs were allowed to open. There are 40 to 45 licensed premises in my constituency. There were three breaches. One premises caused a double breach. Therefore, two premises out of those 45 caused breaches. The others were broadly in compliance. In fact, the superintendent - I am not speaking as his spokesperson but referring to the conversation we had at that time - referred to how positive publicans were when the gardaí come in to inspect and how reassured also that patrons were that the gardaí were checking on the premises.

It is worth saying that while the previous Government had a monumental task in relation to the lockdown, it was a clear-cut binary task. We threw the off switch. Unlocking from a lockdown was always going to be much more difficult and much more arduous and be faced with much more opposition.

However, it is such a basic point, but we are living in the midst of a pandemic. People might have thought it would be over by now - clearly, we know it is not. During the short recess, I read a book on the Spanish flu in Ireland which had three phases: it arrived, there was a spike in November, and again in March and April and then, thankfully, it disappeared. We are starting to realise that there will be surges and spikes but we have done a really incredible job in unlocking the bulk of the economy during that period.

Hospitality has suffered in particular. Why is there an issue about wet pubs? NPHET gives daily briefings but not everyone has access to those which means they need to communicate more and more that when people have a few drinks on them, they relax a little and become more convivial. NPHET says there is evidence to suggest that protocols begin to break down, that 2 m become 1 m and less than that. Another significant factor is voices being raised. As Professor Luke O'Neill said six months ago, people raise their voices and shout as they become more relaxed and boisterous. This relates to any gathering, even on the sidelines of pitches. However, one must read the NPHET rules to really know this. It is something that needs to be repeatedly re-emphasised.

Previous speakers have spoken of pubs in rural Ireland. They are trying to have a divisive debate, as usual. There are publicans in Dublin city and county whom the regulations have cost thousands of euro by requiring them to keep their pubs shut. Their employees now face a reduction in their weekly incomes, having done weeks of online courses produced by the Licensed Vintners Association and the Vintners Federation of Ireland on Covid, as well as health and safety training and Fáilte Ireland courses. These are incredibly well trained and equipped staff who are trained to the gills in how to deal with customers when pubs open.

I am hopeful that when these temporary powers come to be reviewed, those who breached the guidelines may have been caught and punished. One of the things I like in the guidelines is that if a pub is closed temporarily or in an emergency way, a notice will be put up outside informing the public of the reasons it has been closed temporarily. The public will know that the gardaí are saying that the pub has been behaving in an irresponsible manner. We might then be left with the public houses that are behaving in a responsible manner. We might then be in a stronger position to provide the roadmap that I know the publicans in my constituency and their employees are seeking. They are longing to know that there may be a date beyond which it will be safe to open. If we implement these rules, and this legislation must be passed, the public will know that rogue traders will be punished. Publicans will know that if they behave in a certain manner, they will be punished and may have to close for a day or three days, their licence may be under review and they may face other sanctions such as fines. The public may eventually have confidence that the pubs which are open are safe to use. At that point, I hope we might be able to look at opening the other pubs. Pubs are not just about drink. They are a sanctuary, a social place and a meeting place where people - particularly, but not exclusively, men - can go out with their friends to talk about things and make connections. We have lost that in society necessarily. I strongly support these temporary measures which are very much required.

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