Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for their good wishes and I look forward to working with them in my new role. I want to clarify that the Department of Rural and Community Development is a separate Department, as is the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. They are being maintained on a separate basis and I look forward to working as Minister, separately, for both Departments.

What we have seen throughout the Covid-19 crisis is people showing solidarity at a time of national crisis. People stayed away from their families and friends for months on end to protect each other and to ensure the virus did not spread. We have seen our front-line workers, our nurses and doctors, do more than anyone could have expected to protect us in recent months. All that work and those sacrifices were made to save lives.

The pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, was introduced as a solidarity payment at a time of unprecedented crisis for this country and to help people to adhere to public health advice. As part of that national solidarity we have seen displayed so strongly in recent months, we are asking people to adhere to the public health advice and to not travel abroad. If it is necessary for people to travel for essential reasons, such as in the case of a bereavement, an unwell family member or health reasons, it is possible to travel and payments will not be impacted. I want to be clear about that. It is necessary for people to just tell staff in their social welfare office that they are going abroad and the payment will not be interrupted.

Since the onset of Covid-19, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection's range of income supports has been developed to support the implementation of the public health advice. Restrictions for paying social welfare recipients when they are abroad are contained in primary legislation in section 189 and 249 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. Despite these restrictions, the Department has historically applied flexibility for up to two weeks absence from the State. This has been applied via administrative measures for jobseeker's allowance and by regulation for jobseeker's benefit. The PUP was never subject to such flexibility and there is a legislative provision preventing its continued payment outside the State in sections 189 and 249 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005.

In the midst of a global pandemic and to support the continued adoption of public health advice, the Department has temporarily suspended the flexibility which applied to jobseeker's allowance and jobseeker's benefit payments. This required suspending administrative arrangements for the jobseeker's allowance and introducing a new regulation for jobseeker's benefit. Since 2012, the Department's social welfare inspectors have been undertaking controlled checks at airports and ports. These checks have a firm legal basis in section 250(16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended, and I am advised by my officials that no travel information is shared between an airport or port and the Department. The Department's social welfare inspectors or gardaí seconded to the Department are on the ground in the airport and at the ports and speak to relevant individuals accordingly, and social welfare inspectors are operating within their statutory powers.

Since 13 March, the Department has stopped payments to 2,500 recipients of PUP, of which 2,000 relate to Dublin Airport and 500 to other ports and airports. Had these claims not been stopped, the Department might have incurred additional expenditure of €20.5 million. That would have meant it would have cost taxpayers €20.5 million in payments to people not entitled to receive those payments. The majority of the people concerned are not going on holidays; they are leaving the country, and once recipients live outside of the country, they are not entitled to these payments.

A small number of people may have had to leave the country for various reasons and have since returned. We have heard many stories tonight about people who had to leave to visit a sick relative or for some family emergency. People who feel they were treated wrongly can request a review. As Deputies will be aware, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has an appeals mechanism throughout its processes to which anybody is entitled to apply.

Regarding restrictions on paying social welfare payment abroad, these are contained in primary legislation under sections 189 and 249 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 which disqualify people from receiving payments for any time they are absent from the State. The Department, however, has allowed flexibility for those who leave the State for up to two weeks, and this flexibility has been provided by way of a regulation for contributory-based payments such as jobseeker's benefit, and by using administrative measures for other payments, such as jobseeker's allowance.

9 o’clock

To be clear, it is set down in legislation that one does not get payments if one is outside the country. However, we have historically applied flexibility to allow for two weeks' foreign travel.

In light of the global Covid-19 pandemic, it was not considered appropriate to retain the normal flexibility arrangements from March onwards given the strong public health advice cautioning against all foreign travel. The Department therefore temporarily suspended this flexibility for jobseeker's schemes. For jobseeker's allowance, this required the suspension of administrative arrangements and, for jobseeker's benefit, it required a new regulation. It is important to note that the pandemic unemployment payment is only payable to people who are living in the State and it was never paid to people who travel abroad. The flexibility which previously applied to other social welfare payments never applied to the pandemic unemployment payment. The prohibition on the payment of the PUP is set out in primary legislation. It should be remembered that the PUP was introduced when the world was in lockdown and we are not out of the woods yet. Deputies should think back to the time when the PUP was introduced and people could only travel 2 km within their own counties. As I said, we are not out of the woods yet and we must take the public health advice. Deputies might remember the public reaction to the crowds who visited the Cheltenham Festival. It was felt that people returning from the festival had brought the virus with them. If the virus starts to spread again in six weeks' time, which I hope it does not, Deputies will be asking me why I was making payments to people who were acting against public health advice.

The Department is satisfied that the regulation is drafted on an appropriate legal basis despite comments by some in the media. The Government is not discriminating against social welfare recipients. Public sector staff, who must quarantine for the 14-day period, must take either annual leave or unpaid leave to cover this absence from work. Many private companies are also applying those rules.

Issues around the green list were raised by some Deputies. We keep everything under review in line with public health advice and if anyone has to travel for urgent reasons, for example, if there is a bereavement or somebody is sick, the Department will take account of these exceptional circumstances. Such persons should notify the information to their local social welfare or Intreo office at the earliest possible date.

As part of its ongoing work, the Department conducts checks in ports and airports. Since June 2012, social welfare inspectors have had legal powers to carry out these checks as part of the ongoing control work in which they are engaged. There is nothing new here; it has been happening since 2012. The Minister at the time, former Deputy Joan Burton, introduced that legislation and rightly so. She wanted to stop welfare tourists.

As I said, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is facing a somewhat different situation this year. We are in a very different environment and large numbers of people have been leaving the country since mid-March, arising from the lockdown imposed because of the Covid-19 pandemic. In the main, those people were moving permanently from Ireland to their home countries in the same way that some people returned home to Ireland. There were people who came back to Ireland and others who were living here and returned to their own countries. Those people were not entitled to receive the payment when they moved out of this country. The pandemic unemployment payment was never to be paid to people outside the State. Social welfare inspectors increased their checks in airports and ports from mid-March to detect PUP recipients who were leaving the State permanently while still in receipt of the payment.

The pandemic unemployment payment scheme was introduced quickly and, as somebody else said, speed trumped perfection. The payment required an online application form, none of the normal checks were applied and it was easy for some people to abuse it for that simple reason. There was no face-to-face interview as would normally happen. It was a one-page online application. The work of the Department in carrying out the checks and balances that one would expect of it has resulted in potential savings of €20.5 million to the State. The Sunday Business Postcarried a story at the weekend based on information provided by the Department. Since 7 July, 104 PUP recipients and 44 individuals in receipt of other social welfare payments have had their payments stopped as they were leaving the country through Dublin Airport. Of this latter group, 33 of the 44 were in receipt of jobseeker's allowance. To be clear, if somebody goes to his or her social protection office and explains that certain circumstances require essential travel, that person will be accommodated.

A number of issues were raised about inspectors. The DAA does not pass travel information to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. The Department does not have access to travel data, nor does it have access to passenger locator forms from any airport or port and it does not receive travel information from the Department of Justice and Equality. As part of its normal control work, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection carries out compliance inspections at ports and airports throughout the course of the year. Since 2012, social welfare inspectors have had legal powers to carry out these checks as part of the ongoing control and compliance work in which they engage. The legal basis for the control and compliance checks is section 250(16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended by section 17 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012. These checks are carried out as certain social welfare payments are only paid to people residing in the State. These compliance checks involve inspectors speaking directly with passengers and any information gathered is used only for the purpose for which it is gathered. Social welfare inspectors have legal powers under social welfare legislation to ask for PPS numbers. Social welfare inspectors have to be approved by the DAA to work in the airport and all have clearance from the authority to work there. They all have Dublin Airport identity cards and Garda vetting is part of the process of obtaining an identity card. Inspectors must also undergo security awareness training.

I note the points raised by Deputy MacSharry about a particular issue and am happy to make sure we check out the full facts of the case.

Deputies have raised a number of points and I will address as many of them as I can. To respond to Deputy Sherlock, the Department has worked closely with the Attorney General's office on this Bill. We would obviously not have received a stamped copy of the Bill if it was unconstitutional. Social insurance contributions are attributed so that people who have been made unemployed during the public health crisis can maintain social insurance records. It is important that they get the full benefit of their social insurance contributions.

While Deputy Harkin has a point, freedom of movement can be restricted in exceptional times. That is my response to the question raised by the Deputy.

In response to Deputy Danny Healy-Rae, seasonal workers will benefit from the new employment wage subsidy scheme. The relevant Bill is sponsored by the Minister for Finance.

Points were raised about people who are looking for work. I know there are some sectors of the economy that have not reopened yet and hopefully they will be allowed to reopen on 10 August. In making sure that people are looking for work, the Department will take a common sense approach. It is okay for people to wait for the sector in which they work to reopen.

It is fully understandable that people are waiting for their jobs to come back. Unfortunately, a lot of people will not return to their jobs and that is why we want to help them get new jobs. My Department has an allocation of €112 million under the July stimulus package to help people retrain, reskill and get better jobs. We want to help people. In conjunction with the Department for higher education, there is a total budget of €200 million to support all sorts of training, apprenticeships and schemes that we can provide to help people reskill and find new jobs in other areas.

Those resident in the North were mentioned. The position regarding the pandemic unemployment payment for frontier workers is no different from the position for any other employment benefit. The Deputy who raised the issue will know that EU regulations govern our treatment of frontier workers. We have correctly followed the same approach here. Under the current EU rules, the member state of residence is the member state responsible for the payment of unemployment benefit. I live on the Border and can understand why people living in Northern Ireland and working in Border counties would like to avail of the PUP. In Northern Ireland the jobseeker's benefit payment is €100 compared with €350 south of the Border. Those aged under 25 in Northern Ireland will only get €60. Those who employ people living in Northern Ireland and working in the Republic can avail of the wage subsidy scheme.

The issue of seasonal workers will be addressed under the employment support subsidy, which is the follow-on from the wage subsidy scheme. Seasonal workers will be allowed to join the scheme.

The issue of post offices was raised by Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. The matter has been brought to my attention and I have spoken to my officials about it. I understand local offices are sending letters to people asking them to provide their bank account details. I have taken the issue on board.

In respect of the self-employed, it is important to note that the assessment of income is based on returns to the Revenue Commissioners. The majority of self-employed individuals declare their income through self-assessment, under which there is a common date for the payment of tax and filing of tax returns. Individuals must file their tax on or before 31 October in the year after the year to which the return relates, which is the reason we chose 2018. It is the last tax year for which complete data on self-employed income are available. If people file their 2019 returns to the Revenue Commissioners, we will accept those figures. I fully understand that in some cases the 2019 figures will be better than the 2018 figures, which means people will be entitled to higher payments.

Deputy Fitzmaurice referred to a self-employed person who is renting a premises. The restart grant is available to self-employed people who are renting premises and paying rates. It was increased last week from €2,000 to a minimum of €4,000. Anybody who has already received €2,000 can apply for a further €2,000. The maximum available is €25,000.

I understand that the current situation is extremely difficult for those in the arts and entertainment industry. I have spoken to band members. There are no gigs or performances taking place and they are in a very difficult position. The former Minister, the Minister of State, Deputy Josepha Madigan, announced a €25 million package. As part of the July stimulus package, the Minister with responsibility for the arts, Deputy Catherine Martin, announced further supports for the industry. There is no two ways about it; it is difficult for those in the industry and we are all concerned about them.

Concerns were expressed about redundancy. The Bill does not interfere with redundancy legislation in any way. An employee who has been working for the same employer for two years can claim redundancy if his or her role no longer exists from 10 August.

Deputy McGrath raised the case of the man with a van. Such people will get the enterprise support grant. They have to submit information on the extra costs they have incurred as a result of Covid-19. Some support is available for them.

In fairness, the quickest way we can get artists and publicans back to work is by keeping the virus under control. That will only happen if we follow the public health advice. That means people should not travel abroad. That is the advice. We all have to continue to play a part in protecting each other.

I have covered most of the issues that have been raised during this debate. I thank Deputies for their contributions. I am listening and have heard and take on board their concerns.

See this speech in context