Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the important issues raised in the motion. I thank the proposers and those who have contributed to this debate. It is important and right that this debate should be held.

Together with the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of State, Deputy English, I met representatives of Debenhams workers this morning and heard directly their views, concerns and expectations. This was a constructive meeting. We discussed many issues and options, which are under further consideration.

Every Member believes these workers have been treated shoddily by a company to which they have given loyal service over many years and decades. Today, I met Carol and Valerie whom I was glad to meet and hear their concerns. I thank them for their honesty and direct engagement. Both ladies have given 54 years' service between them to this company which in itself speaks volumes.

The Covid crisis has been a reminder to all of us as to how much front-line workers, including retail workers, contribute to our society. I was heartened to hear the positive stories from both Carol and Valerie on how the Government's job loss response protocol is providing assistance, information and guidance to the Debenhams workers. That is not my opinion but comes from the workers themselves.

I was also struck that the representatives this morning did not focus solely on their own case but spoke also of the need for better protections for workers in insolvency in general. Responding to that identified need, I reiterated our commitments under the programme for Government. As Minister of State with responsibility for company legislation, I look forward to working with all parties in the House on how we can bring forward legislation to protect workers from rogue employers. It is important to emphasise that workers who are laid off are guaranteed their statutory redundancy. This will be paid through the Social Insurance Fund, if necessary, but we are looking to improve this.

Some Members were critical in their contributions about the July stimulus programme, which will be published tomorrow. This is about focusing attention on retraining and upskilling people. It is about extending the wage subsidy scheme and enhancing the restart grant. This is about creating new jobs while trying to protect and save existing ones. It is about protecting and supporting businesses to ensure people have job opportunities. I do not want to keep people on social welfare. I am about bringing forward policies which can support job creation and give everyone equal opportunities to get meaningful and rewarding jobs.

I acknowledge the retail sector faces many challenges, particularly from online retail. I encourage people, as others have, to refrain from using Debenhams online stores.

The suggestion has been made that, in the case of Debenhams, a tactical liquidation has been pursued. I am not making a specific comment while the case remains before the courts. However, in general terms under the Companies Act, a company cannot merely assert that it is insolvent. It must apply for an official court liquidation that is subject to supervision of the court system.

The Companies Act includes provisions to address instances of improper conduct in a liquidation where that is evidenced. For instance, section 608 provides for a court power to order the return of assets improperly transferred. It is worth pointing out that there are civil and criminal penalties associated with these measures.

Turning to redundancy payments and collective agreements, redundancy payments are understandably a focus for employees of Debenhams at this time. It has not been confirmed yet what the company is in a position to pay in redundancy or whether the State will need to make up a shortfall in statutory redundancies. As it stands, collective agreements on payments beyond statutory redundancy are a matter for negotiation between parties through an industrial relations process. The WRC is available to assist if and when that is sought.

Contrary to what the motion suggests, the Duffy Cahill report did not directly recommend the inclusion of enhanced redundancy payments as preferential debts. Indeed, the report stated, "It is not desirable to create a special class of redundant worker with legal rights that go beyond those of the generality of workers", and noted the difficulties of determining whether an entitlement to enhanced redundancy would arise. Nonetheless, the Government has committed in the programme for Government to reviewing the current legal provisions on collective redundancies to see what improvements can be achieved on that front. These are particularly pressing issues, given the number of people whose employment has been threatened or lost as a result of the Covid-19 public health emergency. The Government has made several important commitments in the programme for Government, which are to be immediately commenced.

Speaking as a trade union member and the new Minister of State with responsibility for companies regulation, it is my intention to ensure that we pursue legislation to protect workers' rights from rogue employers. We need to make that distinction. There are good employers who treat their employees exceptionally well and give them their just deserts, but there are also many rogue employers. That cannot be tolerated. I ask Members to work with me in my new role over the next number of years to improve and enhance that legislation, and I pledge to work with them to ensure that happens. I for one do not want to see a situation where reports such as the Duffy Cahill report are commissioned and recommendations are made but are not pursued and implemented. I ask Members to judge me after a longer time in this role, not after just two weeks.

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