Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Deputy Nash's question was first. During my conversation with the British Prime Minister, on Brexit he said and we both agreed that it was in the best interests of the United Kingdom, Ireland and Europe that a comprehensive trade deal be agreed. We also agreed that we needed to get moving and introduce momentum to the talks. In my earlier conversation with Michel Barnier, there was a sense that momentum had not yet been injected into the talks and that it was necessary to make more rapid progress than has been made thus far. The British Prime Minister was very much taken with the idea of getting a deal done that would be comprehensive, good for the future relationship between the UK and Europe and that would be tariff free and quota free. I made the point that it would have to be subject to access to the Single Market and a level playing pitch. That was the nature of the discussion. It remains to be seen what will happen. The talks are still slow enough. There has been some progress with regard to the Northern Ireland protocol. More progress is needed on the other key issues that have held up talks to date.

With regard to my conversations with Angela Merkel and the size of the overall package, the Chancellor was very anxious that a deal be done at this meeting of the Council.

I said we supported the overall size of the package, that we felt that Europe needed to make a significant response given the crisis we are in and that that was important for confidence across Europe. We export to countries all over Europe and it is important that there is a strong eurozone and European recovery because that would benefit Ireland.

I think there is a 50:50 chance of success. It is not going to be easy. Some countries are very much against the size of the package. Some are against the nature of what has been proposed but progress has been made and the most recent negotiating box put forward by Charles Michel is reflective of some of our concerns, in particular the Brexit compensatory fund but also the idea of changing the allocation key in respect of the 70% to 30% split so that now 30% will be used later to deal with the impact of Covid. It will take some time.

In response to Deputy Barry's question, no I did not raise the Apple judgment with the President of the Commission, nor did he raise it with me. Obviously, that was a matter for the courts. The court has ruled and we either have regard for the rule of law and the courts or we do not. I heard Deputy Boyd Barrett's remarks as well. It is as if the court did not rule at all. The court annulled the decision of the Commission and essentially stated that Ireland did not collect any tax to which it was not entitled, nor could we collect tax to which we are not legally entitled.

I also make the point that 6,000 people work in Apple now. That matters. They are ordinary people. They never get mentioned. The relationship between Ireland and Apple from 1980 onwards has been a strong one. Ireland has to live in the real world. Approximately 245,000 jobs in this country have been created by multinational companies. That is not insignificant. Those are ordinary people working in those companies. We have had to compete for those industries.

I do take the overall point, as I stated in response to Deputy Nash earlier, in respect of the global framework and the necessity to work with the BEPS process and to get a fairer system globally in respect of the revenue of multinational corporations. However, we have to be sensible as a country too in the sense that we have to retain jobs here. These are subjects that rarely get discussed in this House. The debate is always in one direction. That is the basic argument I make to Deputy Barry and to Deputy Boyd Barrett. The other side of the story never gets discussed. Ireland is a much different country now than it was 30, 40 or 50 years ago. We are very good at manufacturing – high level and high-end manufacturing. We are very good at technology and software. We have a good indigenous sector. We have an emerging entrepreneurial sector. I put a significant amount of that down to the fact that there has been a significant spin-off from the presence of multinationals here, more than just money, funding and corporation tax. Many of our companies have grown on the back of that and are now themselves major companies as a result.

It very often depends on whether one believes in an enterprise economy or not. I believe we do need to change. We need to increase the level of focus on indigenous companies and try to grow them and help them more but, equally, we must be conscious that we are in a mobile, global world where other countries are competing. We have to keep our eyes open in that regard and not be naive about it either. I agree with what Deputy Nash said earlier, that there are other issues such as skills, education and research that can help to attract people in and embed them here as well.

I do not accept the assertions made. The Deputies are now changing the goalposts in terms of what the court did or did not do. The court was asked to assess whether illegal state aid had been provided in a deal done by Ireland with Apple and the court has annulled the conclusion that the Commission came to some time ago. In essence, that is what has happened. It is open to the Commission to appeal that. I think it has up to two years to appeal the decision and the funding will stay in the escrow account.

In response to Deputy McDonald's questions on the pandemic unemployment payment, I will pursue the issue with the Minister concerned. Things are never as simple as they are presented in terms of issues of this kind. To be fair to the outgoing Government, the pandemic unemployment payment, with which party leaders in the Opposition all agreed, was an important intervention to protect livelihoods. It does involve significant resources, as did the wage subsidy scheme. It got refined over time as anomalies emerged in the application of both schemes. I will have the matter examined.

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