John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I have listened carefully to what the Minister has had to say. I am sure the same contribution to a debate like this could have been given in previous years. Nothing has changed. The fact of the matter is that wards of court and those who campaign for transparency in the system have been at this for years, dating back to before 2002. Certainly, the matter was raised in 2002 at the Committee of Public Accounts. Right now, people can read on the website some tales from individual families.

The parents of one family are 73 and 74 years of age. They are now caring for their son, who has €25,000, though he was granted €516,000 in 2007.

The lack of information being given out to families is a disgrace and needs to be addressed. The Minister's suggestions about the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015 do not address the efficiency of the wards of court, or the accountability and transparency that is required, in any significant way. The Minister, in his speech, erected roadblocks at every turn for families who want basic rights applied both to the fund and to the administration of their cases. Those rights include a right to information, a right not to be obstructed in the courts by the General Solicitor, a right to understand how the money is invested, a right to the statements and a right for family members to participate with the fund and the individual concerned in a meaningful and constructive way. They have a right to basic information without having to pay for it, fight for it, or go to court for it. One family member of a ward of court had to pay €30,000 to go through the courts to get some input into the care of their loved one. If the Minister thinks that is fair in this day and age, then we are seriously out of kilter with the demands of the families concerned, the wishes of the Committee of Public Accounts of years ago and the wishes of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality now. I commend the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality for the work it has undertaken and the report it has provided to this House. However, there seems to be an unwillingness to address the central issues, namely, accountability for the funds, the involvement of families and the fact that the HSE in particular continues to involve people in this system. It is not working and does not work for families.

Wards of court are now trying to exist on disability allowance, despite the fact that they were given awards in court on the basis that they were needed for their future care. Those funds were poorly invested and managed by the State and there is little explanation of the fees and charges involved. The people who are suffering are the very ones who should not suffer, because they were given these awards by courts in the past. It has nothing to do with the judges or what they awarded, but has to do with the management and transparency of the fund. It is rather ironic that the Minister says the Comptroller and Auditor General cannot audit these funds for legal reasons, as they are not public funds, because when I introduced the Court Funds Administration Bill in May 2017, the Minister supported it. It is currently on Second Stage in this House. If the Minister really wanted to do something about it, he could take that Bill and the commitment he gave by allowing its passage to Second Stage and pass it. He may amend it as he wishes, if that makes it work better. He could also bring forward legislation to allow the independent office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to audit these accounts.

There are two strands to this debate. One is the right of individuals to information so they and their families know where the money is invested and what the charges and fees are about. There should also be constructive engagement with the General Solicitor and the system itself to ensure families are put at ease and are comforted that the best is being done. They also need an explanation of how these funds were managed and why they are now reduced to a level where they cannot pay for the care supports needed by the individuals concerned. If the State were to deem it necessary to address those funds because of the funds' bad management, then it should also be prepared to offer top-up funding in some of those cases. The Minister has said that Mazar's audited approximately 60 of these funds, but anyone in the Public Gallery today will tell the Minister a different story. He should ask them how they are treated regarding being given basic information.

It is surely a reflection on this House that we are still looking at an Act from the 1800s which uses language such as "lunatic" and so on. In a modern democracy, and for the sake of society and the weakest people in it, we should at least be giving them their proper titles. We should have proper structures for families to engage with. Three to four years is too long to wait for the implementation of the 2015 Act. Parents are now moving on in years and the logistics of transferring funds and doing whatever is necessary according to that Act adds to those years. All they want is for the Minister to strip away the bureaucracy and the commentary of how it cannot be done and to look at the basic courtesy families require. The Minister needs to address the basic information they need and deliver it to them in a sensible, constructive way. They should have input into the management of the care of the individuals concerned and should be given information so as to understand the extent of the funds left and how they are going to be managed. It is far too adversarial a system for families who are trying to engage constructively. That could be taken out of the system with a little common sense and we could begin a process of treating people fairly and delivering what everyone in every sector of society demands - information, transparency and accountability.

If we are acting as a Parliament on behalf of the people of this country, I appeal to the Minister to meet those who have been campaigning for this change for a number of years before he leaves this Chamber today. He needs to listen to the other side of the story, rather than relying on the official side that is delivered to him. He should understand their concerns and their desire to help and assist loved ones who cannot help themselves. We owe it to them. Both the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality and the Committee of Public Accounts of yesteryear have highlighted this. Everyone is appealing to the Minister to cut the nonsense, apply common sense and deliver the basic requirements campaigners are asking for. Nothing else will do and anything else is just fobbing them off and sending the fool further.

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