Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has just pointed out that the person who gave him that information was a volunteer in MABS. I point out to him that we do not have any volunteers in MABS. The only volunteers we have are in the Citizens Information Board where they are very valuable and we appreciate greatly the work they do. It is a real pity the Deputy started off in that vein.

Approximately 19 months ago, Deputy Brady introduced this Private Members' Bill on First Stage in the House. While it is very short, the Bill has magnificently significant implications for the services provided by MABS nationally. Section 2 of the Bill proposes simply deleting all references to the Money Advice and Budgeting Service from both the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2008 and the Comhairle Act 2000. At a single stroke, this short section seeks to remove the statutory basis for MABS and replace it with a big fat nothing. It falls so short of the required standard that it would, if implemented, create a dangerous vacuum for an excellent and a vital service that supports, as the Deputy rightly notes, thousands of our citizens. The Government has no alternative but to oppose the Deputy's Bill which seeks to remove the Money Advice and Budgeting Service from under the statutory remit of the Citizens Information Board. The Deputy has not put forward any alternative scenario for how MABS would operate after this change, how it would be funded, where responsibility would rest for the delivery of the service and whether there would be any legislative basis for MABS in the future. The Private Members' Bill is silent in relation to all these important points. If enacted, the Bill would remove the governance structure for MABS and create an accountability vacuum. That said, I welcome the opportunity to talk about MABS. Doing so allows me to emphasise the vital work the service delivers right across the State. As the Minister responsible for MABS and on behalf of all citizens who receive and require its services, I thank MABS staff and their boards for the invaluable support, advice and guidance they offer people every day of the year.

In 2008 in recognition of the need of the MABS network of 53 independent companies for a proper legislative basis and enhanced governance structure, the then Government, following detailed and careful consideration, assigned statutory responsibility for MABS to the Citizens Information Board. It was the Fianna Fáil-Green Party coalition which very wisely did that. Under the CIB's governance structure, MABS has continued to develop into a professional, well-respected provider of free, confidential and independent advice to help people overcome indebtedness and support them in managing their finances. MABS services have evolved so that they are increasingly responsive to the needs of clients and its work has become more varied and complex over time. MABS assists people in dealing with multiple debts and advises them on the voluntary and statutory options available to them. Under CIB's guidance since 2009, MABS has been to the forefront in delivering a number of specific initiatives. MABS has developed operational protocols with the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland, or BPFI, and all major energy suppliers to put in place affordable repayment plans for clients. Following the introduction of the Insolvency Act 2012, CIB worked closely with MABS to establish a new statutory service of approved intermediaries to process debt relief notices for people with low levels of debt. More recently in 2015 and again under CIB's guidance, MABS established a dedicated mortgage arrears service as part of the Government's response to providing supports to those tens of thousands of mortgage holders who were in arrears at the time. MABS has played a key role in the Abhaile service which helps people who are insolvent and in mortgage arrears. MABS has a key function as it is the gateway for a person to access the most appropriate professional advice under its voucher scheme.

Throughout the development of all these initiatives, the CIB has worked tirelessly and effectively with MABS to design new services, secure the necessary resources from Government and deliver them to clients. MABS is fully funded and supported by the CIB which has consistently fought during my tenure as Minister and previously for an increase in annual resources for the service. It is interesting to note that prior to moving under the CIB governance structure, the MABS annual allocation was €14.5 million in 2007. With CIB's support, this allocation has increased to almost €21 million in 2019. This represents an increase of €6.5 million, or approximately 45%, over the period. The increased allocation is evidence of the CIB's strong and ongoing commitment over a sustained period to the excellent service provided by MABS. The scale of the increase in investment in MABS over an extended period, the creation of a legislative basis for MABS and the complementary nature of the services provided by MABS and the Citizens Information service are evidence that the transfer of responsibility from my Department to CIB has facilitated the growth and development of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service. That is very welcome.

With Exchequer funding and national recognition comes increased accountability. CIB is accountable for the funding provided to MABS.

To improve the governance arrangements and better direct valuable resources to front-line service delivery, the board of the CIB decided in February 2017 to restructure the governance arrangements of its locally delivered services. This decision was made following detailed consultation and assessment, which commenced in 2014. The previous structure, which involved 51 MABS companies and 42 citizens information service, CIS, companies, was restructured into an eight-region model, with each having a MABS company and a CIS company. The rationale for the new regional companies was to improve the governance arrangements for CIB-funded services and to optimise the benefits from operating a more modern and streamlined service delivery model that focuses on citizens. The proposed restructuring has been achieved through the co-operation of local MABS and CIS companies with the CIB. Members of the UNITE trade union in MABS voted in favour of the transfer to the new regional company structure. The restructuring process was completed in October 2018. New service level agreements are in place for all the new companies, in line with best governance practice. The CIB and the regional companies are working effectively together to further the MABS service. The board remains committed to the establishment of local advisory committees. It is working closely with the regional companies on the completion of their establishment.

The Deputy originally proposed this Bill in 2017, which was prior to the commencement of the restructuring process. It was proposed on the basis that the restructuring would have a negative impact on the services offered to citizens. Despite what we heard more than 19 months ago, MABS has been fully protected under the restructuring process. There have been no job losses and no service delivery centres have closed. Most important, there has been no diminution in the services provided to MABS clients. On the contrary, the restructuring process has yielded benefits to MABS companies. Additional resources have been allocated to the eight new regional companies at an additional cost of approximately €500,000 a year. Further benefits for MABS and its clients are being realised. The regional companies have more flexibility in allocating staff resources to areas of need. Specialist skills are more easily shared across the new regions. Administrative resources are being freed up from previous work associated with supporting 51 local companies. This enables MABS to have a greater focus on the requirements of clients and ensures more MABS resources are directed at citizen-centred services rather than administrative overheads.

Other efficiencies have also been achieved. The number of payroll providers has been reduced to one. A single insurance scheme is in place for all the new regional companies. The standardisation of practices across the eight regional MABS companies is being achieved. A greater proportion of resources is now focused on quality assurance and achieving improved outcomes for clients. That is what we are all supposed to be here to bring about. The new structure has not changed the values of MABS. It continues to have a focus on clients. Its commitment to empowering clients with debt problems and supporting them at vulnerable times in their lives is still at its core. The decision to assign responsibility for MABS to the CIB was taken because MABS and the CIS, which was under the legislative remit of the board, complement each other. Both services are involved in providing independent information, advice and advocacy services to the public. That was the position then and it remains the position today.

The Deputy's Bill proposes to remove MABS from the legislative remit of the CIB. This ill-conceived proposal has not been fully considered. The full implications of the enactment of this Bill have certainly not been thought through. It needs a lot of wisdom to guess, but we can assume that the Deputy is proposing that MABS be removed from the remit of the CIB and transferred back under the remit of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. This would have significant implications. In essence, it would recreate the approach that was in existence in 2007. It would overturn the decision made by this House in 2008 to align MABS with the CIB, thereby ignoring the concerns expressed about the governance of MABS and diluting the independent role of the service. It genuinely would not have a statutory basis anymore. If the Department is required to take over the functions carried out by the board in respect of MABS, it will have significant policy and legal implications, including but not limited to matters of contract law, procurement, the transfer of undertakings (protection of employment) regulations and administrative law. It will call into question the continued existence of the eight new regional MABS companies and the benefits that are accruing from the new structure, such as enhanced front-line services, improved management and governance oversight.

I stress that if this legislation is enacted and responsibility for MABS is transferred back to the Department, it will have significant cost implications for the Exchequer. In such circumstances, the Department would have no alternative but to replicate and probably duplicate the MABS governance structure that was in place in the Department prior to 2008. Substantial additional resources would be required to oversee properly the governance of MABS, given the significant development in the services offered by the service since then. The Department would have to make a further significant investment in the development of ICT systems that create an interface and reporting structure between it and each of the MABS companies. This would be a significant investment and would replicate similar ICT projects that the Department has implemented in respect of other services, such as community employment and the local employment services.

I do not have a glass ball, but I hope I understand correctly the aims of the Deputy's Bill. In light of the costs associated with it, as I have outlined, I ask the House to note that in accordance with Standing Orders 178 and 179, I have asked for a money message to be issued in respect of this Bill. The Bill dates from a time the restructuring of the CIS and MABS had not commenced. At that time, I could probably have accepted that the Deputy had concerns. Nineteen months on, we know the restructuring process has worked well. Despite assertions to the contrary, there has been no diminution of MABS or CIS services, no job losses, no reduction in opening hours and no weakening of MABS's responsibilities for local issues. I, therefore, ask Deputies from all sides of the House to give careful consideration to this Bill and, in particular, the implications it will have if it is passed. If they consider it as I have asked, I hope they will realise that it should not be supported.

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