Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am pleased to speak on this Bill. One of the most contentious aspects of this entire scandal has been the confrontational legal dimension. The scandal itself was, and is, bad enough without considering the legal aspect. The Taoiseach stated that there would be no issue on the part of the Government and that no more sick women who are under life sentences or their families would be dragged through the courts. When those words came from the Taoiseach's mouth we believed that would be the case but, sadly, it has not been, for some very strange and perverse reason. Sick and terminally ill women were forced to go through highly stressful court processes when there was a better way. There has to be a better way. The courts should be the last resort in any dispute but this is especially the case when one's life is threatened because of negligence, misdiagnosis and God knows what. We now see all of the laboratories running for cover and we see the totally reckless behaviour of the private service to which these tests were farmed out. It is uncaring.

As the legislation states, the CervicalCheck Tribunal Bill will do what the Taoiseach said "in respect of the hearing and determination, outside of the court process, of claims arising from acts or omissions arising from CervicalCheck and, for those purposes, to make provision for the establishment of a body, [...] , with the consent of the parties concerned, to hear and determine a certain limited number of claims made to it outside of the court process". I do not have any faith in the tribunal, however. Our experience of tribunals has been bad, sad, and costly, starting with the beef tribunal. We have had one after another. The guys down on the quays and the fat cats are rubbing their hands with glee to see even more coming. It is manna from heaven for them. These tribunals have been costly, useless, toothless and fruitless. They get no answers. They produce boxes of reports that gather dust. Is anyone held accountable? No. Is there any proper investigation? No. Tribunals grow like knotweed. The culture of tribunals has been and will continue to be sickening. It will provide no solace or reprieve for the women affected and their families. Of all the things to do, why set up a tribunal? That is the question we are all hearing. Given our experience of tribunals, we must be in kindergarten if we are going to set up another one.

10 o’clock

We have had the experience. How many more costly tribunals must we have? We had the inquiry over IBRC. We had a briefing recently by the Taoiseach. It was due and now it has gone two years beyond its date and it is only on the first module of 61 pieces. It will go on forever. It was supposed to cost €3 million or €4 million. It is already €11 million and growing. It is unbelievable that we allow that. On the night I met him, I said it should be shut down. What is the point in throwing good money after bad and telling us that it might go on for another three or four years and cost perhaps €50 million, the way it is going, for nothing? We would get more sympathy and empathy from a rock.

Clearly, we would not be here today if the existing court process was sufficient, but it is not. I railed against setting up the new Court of Appeal recently - there was only a small few of us. It was supposed to solve all our problems, but the backlog has got worse. Justice delayed is justice denied and it is left there. However, there is no justice for these women. They have life sentences. The best we can offer is a tribunal. No disrespect to the judge who will head it up, but they have not worked. They are an abject failure and a complete waste of time and money.

It is an adversarial system that is ill-equipped to handle sensitive issues of this kind. It is also not known for the speed at which it can process claims like this. This of course is directly relevant here because of the tragically contracted timespan in which some of the women find themselves, having terminal or life-threatening illnesses. It just beggars belief. The women and their families do not want to have their precious time bogged down in courts when it could be spent with their children or their loved ones.

The Bill also arises, as we know, from the report of Mr. Justice Charles Meenan on an alternative system for dealing with claims arising out of CervicalCheck. Mr. Justice Charles Meenan was tasked by Government last August with identifying further mechanisms to avoid adversarial court proceedings for the women and families affected by the CervicalCheck issues. In his executive summary, Mr. Justice Meenan outlined some of the advantages of the tribunal over a hearing in court. I have no faith they will be any better.

Hearings will be in private and be less formal, which is a good thing in some ways, but if it gets bogged down, no one will know what is going on, so where is the public accountability? Even inquests need to be held in a public place and this will take place behind closed doors. As the tribunal will adopt pre-hearing protocols and case-management procedures, claims should be dealt with more expeditiously. I will believe that when I see it. They will not. The legal system in this country does not have a good record in dealing with cases expeditiously.

It is supposed to be less costly for the parties involved. It will possibly be less costly for the families: they should not have to incur any costs. There is no way it will be less costly for the State based on any tribunals we have had, including the IBRC investigation.

The adoption of pre-hearing protocols and case-management procedures will reduce the adversarial nature of hearings. The constitutional and legal rights of the parties involved are not compromised, but lives have been compromised. We are just tinkering with words and using platitudes. Their lives have been compromised and are under threat. Many of them are under a life sentence.

There is a right of appeal to the High Court - here we go - by way of full rehearing and a subsequent appeal in accordance with law. Such appeals will be heard in private. I worry about this. Those appeals mean we will be going around this circus like trying to circumvent a trip switch on an electric board. We avoid tripping the switch for some time. It is a costly way of avoiding it.

Where liability is not being contested, for example in claims relating solely to non-disclosure, such claims can be fast-tracked through the tribunal. It is all mind-boggling. These are all reasonable and excellent points. We can only wonder why it took so long for such an obviously more humane approach to be introduced. As I said, it is not being introduced: it is just a delaying game - a waiting game - and they could just end up in the courts anyway.

In terms of the damages aspect of this process, inasmuch as they can be assessed and quantified, Mr. Justice Meenan is also very clear when he notes that the pain and suffering involved cannot be overstated. It cannot, must not and will not. However, setting up a tribunal seems to be the best we can do instead of having full and open acceptance of misdiagnosis, neglect, disrespect and no proper accountability held with the powers that be in the Department of Health from the Minister down.

Mr. Justice Meenan is absolutely right to say that the loss of a young mother is not only a tragedy for the family but also has serious financial consequences for the care and support of young children involved. Let us think about it. All of us attend funerals of people who die tragically. Women die of cancer and get killed in accidents. It is worse in the case of suicides, God knows. It is so tragic. The funeral will take place tomorrow of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's friend and colleague who died in Donegal following a tragic accident. He was a young businessman and a father of five. The consequences are that everybody is hurt and emotional.

However, this situation is almost contrived. The State and the Minister must be held as being complicit in this because they allowed it to happen. We are finding out about more and more labs. The thing is bonkers.

As has been shown by High Court cases already settled, damages arising from a negligent misreading of a cervical smear are potentially very significant. We know they are. Doctors and people who read tests all the time can certainly make mistakes. However, this is not down to mistakes. It is pure shoddy practice by backroom cowboy outfits, to which the work was subcontracted. We could not even get the number of overseas labs involved. The eminent doctor found that there were many more labs than he was first told about. It is deceitful and it would be a matter of intrigue if it was not so serious.

That said, all of us here would share the view that what has motivated these brave women is a firm sense of justice. I could not say enough about the bravery of the women and their families, and the solicitor for many of them, Cian O'Carroll from Cashel in County Tipperary. I salute him and thank him. He has long since proved himself by supporting lay-litigants and people who have been trampled upon by the might of the monstrosity that we call the HSE and have been denied healthcare. He has had many a battle with the HSE. I salute him and his staff. I thank them for being so sensitive and understanding to the women in these cases. It is unimaginable how one would sit down and be able to engage with these women, who are so brave and powerful and able to relate their issues to him. He is very sensitive and very delicate given the truly harrowing personal circumstances in which these women find themselves.

What has motivated these brave women is a firm sense of justice and obviously a wish like any mother, parent or sibling - a dying wish in many cases - that their loved ones left behind would be provided for, that they would have enough resources to be able to go to school and get an education without their mother and without their precious sibling, and be comfortable. It is not to get rich.

However, here we are, with the might of the State and the HSE marching in the barristers against them in the courts. There has been no empathy, no sense of justice and no sense of understanding of the wrongdoing that has taken place. It is shocking; it beggars belief.

These women wanted justice for themselves and for the women who potentially could be affected in the future, and that is a huge issue. How will we play catch-up? We already know about the backlog and the huge delays in the tests, but how can we have fit-for-purpose labs when these tests are farmed out? This is a worry I have had about the HSE in many areas in recent years. It is creating a similar situation with the use of private contractors in many areas of care, including for people with profound disabilities. We have had many problems with the HSE and there is little to no scrutiny, just washed-out rules and observations.

As I said, these women want justice for themselves and for women who may be affected in the future. We owe these women an enormous debt of gratitude. They have used their pain to bring about a great social good. I salute their bravery and wish them well. How are we reacting to their bravery, to the pain they live with and to what they have suffered in telling their stories and bearing themselves to us? We have sympathised but we have not empathised, and the HSE has not been reformed.

The Minister should have been gone from here 12 months ago or much sooner, but he was kept in power. Fianna Fáil Members told us that because of the confidence and supply agreement, it could not bring him down. However, the more senior Minister, the Minister for Justice and Equality, was pushed out of power because that Minister did not suit them. They all cosied up together and allowed the Minister to carry on. The Minister for Health is not fit for office. Someone has to be held accountable and he is the political head of the HSE. He got away with blue murder; it is unbelievable. Shame on Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael for supporting him and keeping him there. These women and their families have been treated in a callous way and those Members should hang their heads in disgrace. They are hiding behind Brexit, even though the Minister for Justice and Equality was forced out with no issue. It would cause no issue if the Minister for Health were to go, and we could be rid of him; good riddance to bad rubbish.

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