Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I welcome this Bill but I feel it is being rushed. I will be honest about that. I understand time is tight and the end of this Dáil term is coming but it does feel like this is being rushed somewhat. I am sure every speaker this evening will acknowledge the bravery of the women who came forward and told their stories in the media. I would say that was really hard. I do not know how those women were able to do that. I do not know how even women in the whole of her health could do that.

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These women are battling a really serious illness and yet they and their families can find the inner strength to come out. We must also acknowledge those women who for whatever reason do not feel able to come out, as well as their families. They have been in touch with us. We know what is going on in their lives though they do not feel able to go public.

Clearly the aim of this legislation is to provide a quicker and less adversarial way to deal with some of these issues. It is really important that we remember why we are here and what these women have been through, particularly those women who have been to court. Through a very close friend of mine I have had occasion to see exactly what they have had to go through at first hand. It is really rough. Most of us, even after a few drinks in the company of our friends, do not want to have a frank discussion about our sex lives. They must do so in a courtroom full of people, with strangers trying to pick holes in their story. I do not know how they do it. I refer to the notion of a "loss of consortium", which is the description of a husband's loss of the services of his wife. What they have been through is horrific.

I understand what motivated the Taoiseach when he said that no woman should ever have to go to court and go through that process. However, as is very often the case, particularly with soundbites, talk is really cheap. Women are still having to go to the courts. What has brought us to this juncture is nothing short of shameful. This tribunal will not erase that but I believe it will go some way towards doing so. I assure the Government of Sinn Féin's co-operation in getting this legislation through. We want to work constructively, as I think all parties have done on this issue. As Deputy Butler referred to, all we have to do is remember the sight of Emma Mhic Mhathúna's coffin going past the gates here with her children following behind. That is enough for everyone to say that we must do our best. It is really important that this Bill is as good as it can be. It is in that regard that I say it is a bit rushed. We are speeding towards the end of the term and we want to ensure that we get this Bill as right as it can possibly be.

It is important that the awards issued are in line with those that would be issued by the courts system. It is also important to acknowledge that this is new territory. There should be some acknowledgement on the part of the Government that it has never done this before. It must be open to listening to people who may have a view and particularly to the women who have been impacted, whether or not they have been part of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists review. Those women must be listened to, because reading Dr. Scally's report or talking to them makes it absolutely clear that they did not feel listened to. They felt they were brushed aside. Any woman could talk about going to a doctor and being told some concerns are just women's issues. There is a feeling that these things are not taken very seriously. It is important that those women are at the centre of this process.

The legislation sets out the limitations of the tribunal and the mechanisms for it to do its work. It has to be efficient and compassionate and it has to include as many women as possible. It must not serve to exclude women. We have all had engagement related to the mother and baby homes scheme. I refer to the homes that were left out and the campaigns people had to mount to be included in it. Like the Minister of State, I do not want to see women left outside this process and having to battle with the State and the system again to get into it. We all want this to be done quickly, but in order to be done properly it must be inclusive. In that regard we will be tabling amendments. I am mindful of what was said previously. Those amendments may be ruled technically out of order. I would appreciate if that did not happen. I am quite happy to decline to table an amendment if amendments that are in order are tabled from the Government side to deal with the concerns that have been raised. This is not about me ticking a box so that my amendment is passed, or Deputy Donnelly or Deputy Kelly being able to say that their amendments got through. This is not about defeating the Government's amendments either. It is about making sure this is done right. I have said we will be constructive. That will absolutely include withdrawing amendments if it is the sensible thing to do. However, that also has to involve the Government listening to what is being said, taking it on board and making sure this is done right. We must not end up with someone standing here in a couple of years, listing the names of women who have been excluded after we stood here this evening and said we wanted to make it as inclusive as possible.

I fully appreciate that this is new ground and it is tricky and difficult legislation. I can assure the Government of our support. I think it will get the support of everyone here to get it done right. That means listening and not trying to score points. I am not suggesting the Government is trying to score points; I certainly will not be and I do not think that anyone will. We want this to be right. We have to listen to the women and we have to make it as inclusive as possible.

We have to make it a realistic option for women not to go to court if they really feel they cannot do so. There must be an acknowledgement of what those women have been through. It is important that the tribunal hears testimonies and information from the affected women and anyone it deems it necessary to hear from. It is also important that it can elect to hold certain elements of the process in public. The Dáil is a public forum; I speak in public fora often. If I were discussing what those women will be discussing I am not sure I would take the option of a public forum. However it needs to be there, because for some people it is quite cathartic not just to tell their story but to share what they know and what they have experienced. That is really important to them. In cases where a woman has unfortunately passed away it is important that a family member can appear. That will also help.

In reference to the tribunal itself, it is important that it hears and determines all issues of negligence, breach of duty, breach of statutory duty, breach of contract and any other matters that should arise. I am glad there will be an opportunity to hold hearings in public or in private. We must be prepared for the fact that some of what we will hear in public will make for very uncomfortable listening. If it is important for the women to say it, it is important for us to hear it and to try to understand.

At the very beginning of this there were issues with regard to the release of information and documentation. The things that went on were ridiculous. Information that should have been available online or in soft copy was printed out and sent in hard copy - in other words in an unsearchable format. It was absolutely reprehensible. It is welcome that the tribunal will have the power to compel witnesses and to compel documentation. That is extremely important.

There are some areas of concern. Excluding those who have previously received an award from even giving evidence is a concern. I would be grateful if that was taken on board and consideration was given to how those women can also be included. It is important that all of those affected should have the opportunity to give evidence to the tribunal. As I have said, on the whole we welcome this legislation. It is our intention to work constructively to ensure that it is passed through the Dáil and the Seanad as quickly as possible.

As we move towards the establishment of the tribunal we must be very mindful of the fact that the women who will be part of it and their families have had their trust in the system absolutely shattered.

Many of them have no faith in a system they consider to have let them down. They use the phrase "Having to go to war with the State" because, in effect, that is what they have had to do. They are of the view that the system let them down and then fought against them. As a result, their trust has been shattered. As part of this process, we must acknowledge that those women, and in many instances their families, have been treated disgracefully. The tribunal must be seized as an opportunity to make some form of amends to those women, in so far as amends are even possible given what we know we are dealing with here. I reiterate that it must be inclusive. The test of the tribunal will be the support for it from the women involved.

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