Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

In addressing Second Stage of the Bill, I wish to recall two women in particular who were to a large degree key people responsible for exposing what happened in Irish institutions. I am talking about Christine Buckley, who was in the Goldenbridge orphanage along with many other girls. Anyone who knows the history of Goldenbridge knows that the children there were treated horrifically. There was an ordinary day school beside it, and it is still there. It is a very good school and is beside St. Michael's Estate in Goldenbridge. In fact, one of the founders of Fine Gael is buried in the graveyard adjacent. The second person I wish to mention is Mary Raftery, a very fine RTÉ journalist who died far too young, as Christine Buckley did, and who played a key role in the production of the RTÉ documentary series "States of Fear". A number of other people wrote books about this.

In Dublin, when I was a small child and until about 20 or 30 years ago, if a little girl was bold she was warned she could end up in Goldenbridge, and if a boy misbehaved he was told he might go to Artane. I think there are other Deputies here who know about this. I recall that when I was first elected to the Dáil some years afterwards, the question of what had been happening in these institutions became a public affair. In the case of boys, the stories about Artane and the boys' band started to tumble out. Of course, people took great pride in the band every all-Ireland final day. There was the question of what happened in places such as Daingean and in Letterfrack. All these institutions and many others besides were bywords for appalling savagery to children. The children were beaten and starved. Then, to add to all that, the revelations of sexual abuse gradually came out. This is the background to the Bill.

When I was in government, I recall advising the then Taoiseach that in no circumstances should the records be destroyed, that they are the lived history of all the people who lived in the institutions. I therefore welcome the Bill. At that point, however, the key was to ensure that the records were saved because, frankly, many people, for reasons of defence of the institutions involved in the abuse, wanted the records of what had happened and the evidence that had been given destroyed. I therefore welcome the fact that the Minister and his Government have agreed to hold onto the records, but 75 years is too long. It is so important that the stories and the information we know are passed on to our children and grandchildren in order that never again as a country will we live through this abuse and never in any of our names will it happen again. I remember being amazed when all this information came out in the Dáil that so many Members had simply never heard of the institutions. They did not know. I suppose they came from nice middle-class families. The only institution middle-class people might have been put into was a psychiatric hospital. Enough people were put into those as well. We as a State institutionalised people. The records are incredibly important as a testimony of the things that went wrong in Ireland as well as the many wonderful things and wonderful people.

I really hope the religious orders are not acting as some kind of mental block on this information being revealed because, of course, not all the nuns and priests were abusers. Many of them actually helped and looked after children and probably saved their lives. However, there were many who beat, starved, disrespected and abused the children. There are two sides of this story and we need to remember that. It is not pleasant going back into it. Many of the people who were personally affected are now much older and passing on, but from one and all I have heard, "Please ensure that the records are not destroyed."

I remember when the commission was set up. It was a horrendous experience for many of the people who went to it in its first few years, particularly many of the men because they genuinely had never told anyone. I think the women may have shared their experiences in the institutions a little more than the men did. Of course, many of the boys who were in institutions, particularly if they were musical, found careers in the Army. Many of the people who have served with such distinction in our Defence Forces got into the Defence Forces having left one of the institutions. This is therefore a very complex history.

Part of this opened up when children came back from America as young adults in the 1990s looking for their information because they had been adopted from Ireland and taken to America, and we now know an awful lot more about that. They came to the Department of Foreign Affairs. I was Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development at the time and Dick Spring was both Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. Essentially, with the help particularly of the civil servants in the Department, but also of the people in the National Archives such as Ms Catriona Crowe, those records were saved. They could have been put in a skip and just lost. Those people in many cases therefore got access to their records. We know from the story of Philomena and her son how difficult a process this was.

We are living in a different era now, and the Minister is right to be cautious because these are people's very personal data. I honestly put it to the Minister, however, that the period of 75 years is excessive and uncalled for. The National Archives provide for a period of 30 years. Personally, I would go for a period of 25 years. I also believe that an anonymised project could be done. I heard Deputy Thomas Byrne, the Fianna Fáil spokesperson, say he was very worried about the potential cost of this. Fianna Fáil - Bertie Ahern and Michael Woods - did a deal with the religious orders. How much did that cost us and how does that cost compare with the cost of looking at the records and making them anonymous but making the stories available?

The Minister referred to that matter and it is mentioned in summaries of the Bill. In the early years of the previous Government there was a proposal to have a memorial to people who lived this experience and to the survivors. That recommendation was not accepted. Other recommendations, however, have come from all over the country suggesting there should be memorials and a museum. People could go there to grasp the experience, just as they can go to a museum to experience what it was like living in a Dublin tenement or, indeed, being Jewish in Berlin.

We need somewhere like that. There are already a number of locations in Ireland and in Dublin. I refer to former laundries in the centre of the city which could be utilised to tell the story of what happened to people. I support the Bill, as do others. On Committee Stage, however, I will move to have the period these records are sealed reduced. I understand others will do the same. The Minister should be guided on this by the people who are alive and who lived in these institutions. He should also be guided by the many people who wrote about their experience in the institutions. All the people I have met want the story told so we as a people will never be tempted to be involved in something similar again.

We do of course have our own dilemmas regarding children, not least homelessness. We are not stating this generation is fantastic. We are struggling to get things right and we can acknowledge people then may have struggled as well. What happened to people, however, was dreadful. It left long shadows and deep scars. The commission eventually began to work in a much better and more respectful way in dealing with the people who gave evidence. Later commissions of inquiry have shown much more respect to people recounting what happened to them.

I welcome this Bill and the Labour Party will support it. We will, however, also seek to have the period the records are sealed reduced. We will do that in a spirit of listening to the survivors and what they want. They want the records kept and we all agree with that. It is good that is secured. The survivors also want a memorial to what happened and we can discuss further how that might be done properly. In addition, they want this material made available in an appropriate and much shorter timeframe. They do not want it made available in 75 years. Catriona Crowe has suggested the material could be made available on an anonymised basis. I would be perfectly happy with that.

I do not think the cost can be anything close to that of the redress scheme. I refer to the deal struck by former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and the late Minister and Deputy, Dr. Michael Woods, of Fianna Fáil in the dying days of one Government and the start of another. We could move to have proper respectful remembrance and memorials similar to those commemorating dreadful events in other parts of the world. Children and visitors could learn and hear the story of what happened. We have since heard more stories, such as those from Tuam and the homes in Cork and Roscrea. I refer also to what has been happening more recently with St. Patrick's Guild, which involved tens of thousands of children being adopted. This Government, unfortunately, has still not been able to provide adopted people with access to their records. That is another issue that needs to be addressed. I am glad this Bill has been published. We will support it but we would like the Minister seriously to consider changes.

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