Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Many unanswered questions remain. I do not even believe all of the questions about this project have been asked to date, but we do know that the information on it is being drip-fed, which is regrettable. It has caused more confusion and public unease and certainly eroded the confidence some have in the ability of the State to manage major capital projects.

Let me begin at the start. We know that the two-stage procurement process for the project was a risk. We know this because a report on it outlined both the advantages and the disadvantages of a two-stage process, involving phases A and B. The report sets out clearly that one of the disadvantages is that not tying down the costs could lead to cost overruns. That is what transpired. Why did it transpire? I do not believe we have the complete answer to that question yet, but we certainly know some of the reasons. We know that the bill of quantities was so far out that it obviously contributed.

Deputy Wallace asked who signed off on the process. That question has not been answered as of yet, but we are aware that the Government contracts committee which granted the derogation to the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board did not sign off on it. It only stated the derogation could be taken up by the development board if it so wished. We are aware that the Department of Health did not sign off on the two-stage procurement process because it told us that it did not. We are aware that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform did not sign off on it because it has told us that it did not. We are also aware that the Minister for Health and the Ministers responsible for both finance and public expenditure and reform did not sign off on it because they have told us they did not. That leaves only one element - the development board. Its representatives are to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts in two or three weeks' time when we will ask them whether they signed off on it. If they say they did not, we will have a major issue because nobody will have signed off on it. I am just presuming the board signed off on it because everyone else says they did not. It is simple to answer the question as to who signed off on the two-stage process. Surely it is not a State secret and somebody in the Department knows. Instead of coming to Oireachtas committees, whether they pertain to finance, health or public accounts, and saying who did not sign off on it, we should be told who did. That is the first issue.

The information coming out of the Department and the HSE is being drip fed. It is just creating conspiracy theories in some places, but it is certainly not a good PR exercise on the part of the Government when it cannot even state who signed off on the very process that probably led to the cost overruns. It needs to be honest about the information it is giving. I say this knowing that nobody is a liar in this place. I presume the Minister of State knows the cost of the PwC report. We have been told it was €450,000. At every opportunity to ask questions, including during Leaders' Questions and at committees, we were told that the cost of the report was €450,000. That is not factually true. The cost will be nearly €600,000. The Government knows it and I know it, but nobody is saying it publicly. Today I received from the HSE an answer to a parliamentary question on the cost of the report. I had asked on numerous occasions what the cost was. I asked whether it was €450,000 and set in stone. I was told that it was and that it was the maximum and great value for money. The answer I received today was that the cost was €450,000, plus VAT of 23%, which amounts to another €103,000, plus expenses. Therefore, the cost is €450,000, plus VAT, plus expenses. We cannot yet quantify the expenses because we do not know what they are. There is a cost overrun associated with the report on cost overruns. How ridiculous are we becoming? The Government knows this. It is just not being honest in the information it is giving the people. I ask it to stop trying to spin figures and stories and be honest with the people.

With regard to the cost overrun, I agree with Deputy Fleming that we do not know the final cost of the hospital project. Deputy Kelly was the first member of the Committee of Public Accounts to state publicly it would not stop at €1.7 billion and he has been proved right. Deputy Fleming has also been proved right, with everyone else who said the cost would not be €1.7 billion. The only people who are saying it will be €1.7 billion are members of the Government. They need to start being honest in the information they are giving. It is in the contract that if construction inflation exceeds 4%, the contractor can look for additional moneys. Construction inflation in the Dublin area is around 11% or 12%, which is 8% above the rate set out in the contract. That will be next year, but there is also the following year and the year after that. Therefore, there is no way the Government can state the cost of the project will not exceed €2 billion. In fairness, there is no way I can say it will not exceed €2 billion, but the reality is that no one knows what the final cost will be. I do not know whether the PwC report will address that issue. It will examine the cost overruns, what caused them and how we might be able to reduce them. As I stated, we have to await the outcome of the report.

We already have a report, the Mazars report, from the end of last year. It considered the cost overruns and went into some detail on the issue. There are many questions to be answered and we have not yet had some of the main players before any of the Oireachtas committees to allow us to question them. We need to ask about the role played by the Office of Government Procurement, people sitting on boards not being responsible or being responsible to the board and about collective decision-making. Ludicrously, the minutes of meetings of the development board involving the Department of Health and the HSE refer to cost overruns, but the Minister did not know about it. Not only that, they decided at the very same meeting, when talking about cost overruns, to write to ask him whether there was any chance he could reappoint all of them. He said "not a bother", that he would reappoint all of them. I asked him in a parliamentary question whether, prior to reappointing all of the said individuals, he had asked for a report with an update on the development of the national children's hospital.

Did he ask for any analysis of their performances as board members? Did he ask any questions at all? He did not even speak to them. He just wrote back and reappointed them, which is not good enough. The new chair of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board will be before the Joint Committee on Health in the morning. We will ask him some questions. I hope he is more open than other members of the board in that regard. I also hope he is more open than the Department and the Government in answering questions, because they have answered very few questions that have been factually correct and they have no one to blame but themselves. They are responsible for the cock-up.

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