Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent) | Oireachtas source

My position on this issue is on the record of the House, as Deputies Clare Daly, Connolly and I brought it to the Minister's attention during a Topical Issue debate three weeks ago. Deputy Daly raised it again during Leaders' Questions. Mother and baby homes are one of the darkest parts of our history.

It was mainly working class women and kids who were treated so badly and with such neglect that it is almost unbelievable.

Last year when we got the third report there were probably arguments for the investigation to be extended. The commission indicated it had yet to meet many of the large numbers of people and this clearly had to be done. It indicated that the records were old and many were paper files, meaning the commission had to go through all of them. These amount to a strong enough argument and we could not close the commission at that point because of it. A third point was that extensive information had still to be provided by religious congregations and Departments served with discovery orders. I had a quick look through last year's debate and every Deputy who spoke indicated support of the commission and the Minister. However, many of them made the point that the investigation could not go on after 2019. They argued that all the required resources should have been given to the commission to ensure that in 2019 we would have the report and the survivors would at least be able to have some closure.

Why did this not happen? The fourth interim report states, "The first tranche of discovery was delivered in March 2017." That was from the Health Service Executive and the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The report continues:

This consisted of over 12,000 pages. The second tranche was delivered in March 2018 and consisted of over 54,000 pages. Two further tranches were delivered in June 2018, consisting of approximately 36,000 pages. The Commission was informed in November 2018 that a further 277 relevant files were available. The Commission does not yet know the extent of the material.

That seems to be where the commission was in December. When these tranches were coming through, surely a red flag should have been raised so as to indicate that the commission needed more resources to get the job done because it would not be able to get through this in the time given. The Minister must address that point. Why did the commission not raise an alert and say there were problems? Whatever about 277 files coming in late last year, the matter could have been dealt with more quickly if a flag had been raised and more resources had been allocated to examining those tranches of documents.

The Minister does not want to see the commission not fulfilling its role but this affects older people. They are not just anxious and they were hoping that the commission would bring final findings to them this year; now they are getting angry. These people have lost confidence or trust in the commission and the Minister. The comments from Tommy on the "Prime Time" programme reflected that feeling that justice delayed is justice denied.

I really cannot express how the survivors must be feeling at this stage as some of them will not survive another year. They will not see the closure they need, even when there was an expectation they would have that closure on the matter. I am very angry and bitterly disappointed that we have had to come to the Chamber to discuss another year for the investigation. Irish First Mothers has expressed very clearly how its members feel about this. The Minister said some moneys or support would be given to survivors over the next year but that group called for Judge Yvonne Murphy's commission of investigation to split its historical investigations from redress considerations. Could that happen? The group voiced its support of Catherine Corless and her call for comprehensive historical investigations at Tuam and other sites but argues that the commission has enough evidence to issue a redress finding immediately by way of an interim report. Could that happen? It is something we could consider if we are to deal with the matter of redress for survivors. The group described the delays as being like "a kick in the teeth" for survivors and it is.

We should also consider what happened in the Bethany Home. Mr. Derek Leinster of the Bethany Home survivors' group has stated that time is running out for the Government to do the right thing. He argues that for the Bethany group, members' remaining time would be measured in days and not years, and there are people who cannot afford to keep themselves for the time they have left.

These concerns must be taken on board and I would like the Minister to revert on those two specific points. Could the historical investigations and redress elements of the investigation be separated? Could a redress finding be issued by way of an interim report? The Irish First Mothers group has argued that the Cabinet should stop the "smokescreen" of false redress and it should quit hiding behind Judge Murphy. It has argued that the Cabinet should ask her to issue an interim redress report. If that could be done, it would go some way to dealing with the redress issues. The Irish First Mothers group is now taking legal advice and going to the courts; it should not have reached the point where they feel so let down that the only option they feel they have is to try to get redress in the courts. It is a shame and we should all hang our heads, particularly the Minister and those in the commission.

See this speech in context