Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I can tell that the Acting Chairman is still getting over the Ariana Grande thing.

I want to start by thanking the Minister. This is a Private Members' Bill and we may have been able to get it to Second Stage as a Private Members' Bill but the chances are that it certainly would not have gone any further than that. The Bill has the backing of the Minister and I know she has spent a considerable amount of time on it. I have met her to discuss it on several occasions. Our hope is that it will become law. I want to recognise that it would not have happened without the Minister and I thank her for that.

I acknowledge the huge amount of work that Deputy Rock has done on this over a considerable period. He has been intimately involved in it and we would probably not be here without him championing the Bill and without his input, expertise and passion, and the work he has done with the Minister. I acknowledge Deputy Rock's work. I also acknowledge Deputy Quinlivan, who had his own legislation on this issue, which passed Second Stage. I know this is an issue on which he has done much work and which he takes seriously. I acknowledge the officials in the Department who did an enormous amount of work on this. I recognise what they and their colleagues have done.

The Chairman looked a little confused at the mention of Ariana Grande. Anyone who has teenage or tweenage kids knows exactly who she is. Tickets for her concerts in Ireland went on sale recently. They sold out in the blink of an eye. Those tickets were on sale for €70 and they are now on sale for hundreds of euro on the secondary sites. Under our current law, the sky is the limit for those organised ticket touts. Imagine that kind of pressure every day. All the standard tickets are sold out but these others are available if a kid can convince his or her mum or dad to shell out the money to a tout.

All that pester power means that even the toughest parents can be worn down when they see their kids devastated with no tears left to cry. It is not fair. It is time for us to break free from these ticket touts. It is not just music fans and their long-suffering parents who are set to benefit from the Bill. Sports fans will see how it works for them too. Ireland will play England on Saturday in the Six Nations Championship. Tickets for that match went on sale at €65. If anyone listening to proceedings has a ticket they would like to sell me at €65, let me know. I would happily buy it but people who want to go to the match know that those same tickets are now up for sale on the secondary sites. I checked yesterday and they were starting at €350. I saw them go up to €1,500. I imagine by the end of the day tomorrow they will be even higher. The Bill will make it an offence for anyone to sell a ticket for a major sporting, music and theatrical event above face value. It will make it an offence to advertise a ticket at above face value.

One thing I like about this Bill is its simplicity. We will be making several changes on Committee Stage but it sends out a very simple message. It will not work perfectly but it does not work perfectly anywhere in the world. One of its powers, however, is its simplicity. When it is signed into law, everyone in Ireland will know it is illegal to offer a ticket for sale above face value and to offer for sale on one's website other people's tickets above face value. It will make it possible, not only for the police but for fans, to spot it and tackle it. The Bill is about targeting organised ticket touting. It has become particularly pervasive in recent years with the move to online sales. Sophisticated touts are using so-called bots to buy up large numbers of tickets and to access tickets far more quickly than can any genuine fan. Popular music and sporting events used to take days or hours to sell out and at that time, one could get a ticket if one was willing to queue. I remember standing on Bray Main Street as a teenager at about 5 a.m. trying to get tickets to a U2 concert and we did. At the end of the day the concert was sold out but if one was willing to get up at 4 a.m. and get into Bray and queue up all morning, one could get two tickets. We got two tickets but that does not happen today. Today they are sold out not in days or hours but in minutes or even seconds. What drives genuine fans mad is that while they are pressing the button on the primary site trying to get tickets, they are told they will have to queue, that they have to wait and then that all the tickets have been sold out. Moments later, however, the tickets appear on the secondary sites. In some cases those secondary sites are owned by the primary seller but the tickets are no longer for sale at €65. They are suddenly €100, €200 or €300. We all know what is going on there. It is organised, sophisticated ticket touts using modern technology to gouge fans. It is only the touts who are profiting. Some of these touts are just entrepreneurial types. They saw a gap in the market and they are using technology to make a few quid. Some of it is much more sinister. A lot of evidence was given to a House of Commons committee on this issue last year. One expert involved linked some of the organised ticket touting to organised crime. Worryingly for us, the two areas he identified where those organised gangs are based are Israel and Dublin. There is a highly sinister element to this. Fans, sporting bodies and artists are being ripped off and it needs to stop. This Bill is one important tool in bringing that about.

The Bill protects charities and clubs. It grants them exemptions when tickets are being sold for fundraising so they will still be able to auction off tickets at above face value for fundraising reasons. The Bill allows people to sell their tickets at face value. It allows resellers to do the same; it allows them to do so online and to continue to charge commission on the resale. There is no problem with that. It means that a margin can still be made by reselling sites if they are providing a service. They are providing a way for fans to buy and sell tickets at face value. They are providing verification that they are real tickets and they can charge a commission for it and maintain a margin. This is important because there are a lot of reseller sites in Ireland that employ a lot of people. We need to make sure that while we are protecting fans, we also make sure such jobs are secure.

The Bill is a Private Members' Bill sponsored by Deputy Rock and me. As such, it is not legally rigorous, as is the case with all Private Members' Bills. I acknowledge the work of the officials and the Minister, who have spent a great deal of time developing amendments for Committee Stage to tighten it up. As Deputy Rock stated, some of the people who think they will lose out from this are already threatening constitutional and legal challenges. We, as legislators, have to make sure it is tight before it is passed.

Extensive consultation with stakeholders has taken place and has fed into the Committee Stage amendments. The prohibition on above-cost resale will apply to designated venues with a capacity of over 1,000. The amendment will outlaw the use of so-called bots used by these sophisticated touts, which is really important. Interestingly, it will give UEFA confidence that only legitimate tickets will be sold onto the market for games in Ireland during Euro 2020, which is nice. It is important. Other sporting organisations have already taken steps. As the Minister stated in her speech, the GAA has cancelled tickets for big games in the past when it has seen tickets appearing on secondary sites. I will read part of the GAA's submission to the consultation on ticket touting because it really captures this issue. It stated:

The current legislation in no way reflects the technological developments of recent decades. It does not act as an incentive for the civil authorities to challenge the on-street touting at our fixtures or extortionate pricing on on-line sites. Any change to the current legislation would help protect consumers, our members and the organisation. Touting in its various forms should be classified as a criminal activity with appropriate penalties in place, whether this be on the street, on-line or private trading of tickets above face value or fraudulent tickets.

We all have the height of respect for the GAA and the work it does. They are its words on the actions that need to be taken. My understanding is the FAI is supportive of this. My understanding is the IRFU has indicated it is supportive. We know artists are supportive, as the Minister stated. We know promoters are supportive. Where will the extra money go? It will go to sports bodies and artists. It will go where it should be going, to the people who create the value. At least one other State agency is already acting. Some time ago, when I started looking into this - I think it was about two years ago - I contacted the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, and asked it if an investigation into secondary ticketing was warranted. I told the commission it was something I would like to see, as I had seen disturbing trends in the market I thought might be anti-competitive. I wrote to it and asked if it would consider launching an investigation to see if there was anti-competitive and, therefore, illegal behaviour at play. I was delighted to hear back and subsequently met its representatives. It has launched a belts-and-braces investigation. It is looking at the potential abuse of a dominant market position, the illegal use of multiparty agreements and a range of other anti-competitive issues. I am delighted to be able to say that I have an update from it on the investigation. It has reviewed over 200,000 emails and has conducted 11 hearings. I understand it will issue its findings later this year. Without prejudice to what it finds, I am delighted the CCPC saw fit to take it so seriously and conduct such a comprehensive investigation. We will see what it finds.

This is not the most important issue facing us today. While we all know that, it matters regularly to a great many music and sports fans, artists and sporting bodies.

Therefore, let us do it. Let us stop people getting ripped off. Let us take the gouging out of ticket touting. When it comes to these types of touts, let us say, "Thank you. Next."

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