Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome this debate. I agree with what has been said about the importance of having a public debate on this issue in advance of plebiscites in May. There is very little knowledge that there will be plebiscites in the areas concerned. Across the water and north of the Border, we see from the Brexit negotiations the damage that can be done if a major change is proposed and the public does not know what it is about. The British public learned a lot about what Brexit is since it decided in favour of it but it really should have been having the conversation on it before it voted, and it should have had all the required information. It did not have it. This is an example of where putting something to the public without having the necessary broad conversation is dangerous.

Having said that, I believe we should have the plebiscites but we do need the conversation. The Minister of State needs to find a way in which to have the public debate in the areas concerned as well as here in the Dáil Chamber, at meetings of the committee and so on. The Minister of State needs to find a way, be it through town hall-style meetings or otherwise, to have a general debate so people will understand what the matter is about.

I support what has just been said. I said in the debate before Christmas that we do not know what the functions will be. The Minister of State referred to the requirement that he would revert to the Government with more detailed proposals on the plebiscites, the question to be put and the specific powers to be given to mayors. It is all very well to be reverting to the Government, but will he do so soon so there will be enough time in which to have the conversation? If we only get the information out on the functions and powers close to the vote, there will not be time for a public debate. This is a big decision for local people. If somewhere ends up with a celebrity-style mayor because there has not been a proper debate on what mayors do, it will have the wrong kind of person. We need somebody who can take the responsibility. It is not just about powers. It is about responsibility.

Traditionally, because local government has been so weak, local public representatives have not been in the habit of taking serious decisions and accepting the consequences of their actions. I support the fact that the Minister of State said councillors will continue to have their reserved functions. To an extent, in decisions on budgets and such functions, councillors do take responsibility. If, however, a person is given specific powers, he or she has to take the associated responsibility. Sometimes it is said that while one would like to do everything and would vote for everything, there is only a limited budget, meaning only certain things can be done.. Therefore, there needs to be clear understanding.

My experience of this issue is based largely on the model in France. I was chairman of a twinning committee at one stage and visited the city twinned with Limerick, namely Quimper, Brittany. I had discussions with French mayors and deputy mayors. A French municipality includes the town or city plus the rural hinterland. The mayors make decisions. The deputy mayors are in charge of matters such as transport and the budget. Therefore, they have to say they can do this road but not that road, or this but not that. These are the kinds of responsible decisions we have not been used to in local government. We really need to prepare our public representatives, in addition to the public, for genuine responsibility. It is not just a matter of voting against something because it is in one's area when one knows one's colleagues will vote for it in some other area and it is going to go through. We have to make sure there is real responsibility taken at local level.

There are a number of different models. I have not had time to read about them all. The IPA had in the winter 2017 edition of the Local Authority Timesan article about the different kinds of models for directly elected mayors. We need to consider what model we will have. I would be inclined to agree with Deputy Ó Broin that a small number of specific functions would be more appropriate in the beginning. That will mean the public will have a better chance of understanding what it is voting for, and the public representatives and the directly elected mayor will understand what their responsibilities will be. Some of the decisions they might have to make might not be all that popular, and they need to recognise that. There is a genuine learning curve and there is not an awful lot of time to learn.

I presume Galway is excluded because it will not be ready on time. In a way, it is a pity that the people of Galway will not have the opportunities to vote for what the rest of us will have the opportunity to vote on. The people of Dublin will not either. With regard to Limerick, mayors should be municipally based. An issue arises over the fact that the local authority in Limerick has responsibility for both the city and county, as is the case in Waterford.

As Deputy Quinlivan knows well, under the existing system, Limerick City and County Council has had mayors from far away parts of the county. There is also a municipal mayor which causes a lot of confusion about the two roles. I am not sure how it will pan out, but if the directly elected mayor comes from a rural part of the county, it will present an issue. Mayors in other places such as New York, London or Vancouver represent cities. There is an understanding internationally that a mayor - a directly elected mayor in particular - is a city based politician. If we end up with a directly elected mayor of Limerick city and county or Waterford city and county from the rural part of the electoral area, it will pose a problem in how he or she will represent the municipality. I do not know what can be done about this, but it is something that needs to be considered.

I support the principle and hope it will work out well, but it will have a much better chance of being successful if there is clarity well in advance on the functions, powers, responsibilities and budgets, as well as the relationship with the executive of the council, the people and the Government. There are many issues about which the public has not thought or been aware in terms of how it might work. We have always had the same system of local government, which is not about directly elected mayors with powers and functions. I presume the intention is that a directly elected mayor will be like a Minister, that the chief executive will be like the Secretary General of a Department and that the staff will work under both in some way. There are issues to be clarified in that regard and I call for as much public dialogue as possible. Although the responsibility primarily rests with the Minister of State, there is also a responsibility on the rest of us to ensure it is possible and that the information will be decided and made available as quickly as possible in order that the plebiscites and elections will be conducted in such a way that there will be public understanding of what is being voted on. People will not be voting for a champion sportsperson but for somebody who will take responsibility for the running of the area. There also needs to be a sense that this is about subsidiarity, local conversations and engaging with community organisations, businesses and everything that goes on in a local area, not about one person sitting in his or her office making decisions for everybody else. It must be collaborative and there must be engagement throughout the area. I am broadly supportive, but, please, let us get out and speak to the public about what is being proposed.

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