Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Since this debate began a very long time ago, it has always been clear on the part of people who objected to the eighth amendment and believed it put women's lives at risk and was not in the best interests of women and indeed children and Irish people that the right of conscientious objection was always recognised and given freely and generously. What I would say to people here who have taken a conscientious objection position is that this is their right but it is also my right to be a conscientious supporter of proper facilities being available to women when they need that support. Staff in medical institutions, hospitals and practices throughout the country have the right to conscientious objection, but they should acknowledge the right of conscientious supporters. This is not an easy subject. It is a subject where people agonise and weigh decisions as to what is best for them, their families and their future. We do not have absolute insight into everybody's decision but those who righteously profess conscientious objection should also look at the righteous right of other people to support conscientiously this legislation and the changes it brings.

I was a member of the Government at the time of the 2013 Act. Deputy Fitzgerald, the former Attorney General, Máire Whelan, and I were the only women there and, obviously, were the only people with experience of giving birth to children and all the joys, risks and difficulties that involves. We came at it from a practical point of view. How many of us who read the story of what happened to Savita Halappanavar and her husband and thought if only someone had indicated to them to get in the car and drive to Dublin where someone would possibly look after them, rather than the endless confusion and contortion of events that happened which resulted ultimately in her dying when I believe she need not have died had a better path been open to her?

Yes, people have the right to conscientious objection, but from everything I understand about people in the medical and health services, that does not mean that one can then abandon the patient. All that is being asked here is that the patient would be able to be referred to people who conscientiously can address their needs. That referral is a just referral. It does not undermine the conscience of the person who has an objection. That is and was accepted by everybody on this side of the debate from day one years ago. I am so glad that it has been included so positively in this legislation.

In respect of the different grounds that are contested here, I do not agree that when a woman's life is in danger during pregnancy she should be left to die. I am talking based on my personal experience of living in Africa where every year, hundreds of thousands of women die in childbirth. They die from situations in childbirth that are no longer a problem here such as breech births or the lack of midwives or trained doctors. Do people who work in medical services in those countries really say that given all their skills, they will stand by and let every woman who is at risk die? We are in a very special situation in Ireland where we have fantastic doctors, nurses and staff in all our hospitals who are available to people who want home births as well, but what if something goes wrong and the woman's life is in danger? One can even talk to people who are very religious. What if that woman has other children? That is often the situation in Africa. What if she has other children? Are they saying let her die and let those other children go motherless?

I do not think a lot of the people who have put the argument this evening personally believe that because these are complex decisions. They are not easy decisions for anybody but what we are seeking to do in this legislation is put in place a framework where women and their partners and families can be assured that in the relatively rare cases where something goes wrong, they will get the proper attention. That is what we are talking about. We are not talking about some ideology. We are talking about real women and possibly children whose lives are under threat in a situation of pregnancy. We must address that core question.

I recognise conscientious objection but, equally, I recognise the right of women to get treatment that is appropriate to their situation. The people voted for that, which is what gives us our authority to come into the Chamber and say this with all due care and consideration to the people who think differently from us. There are very simple and easy procedures to pass on records and make the information available. We should remember that way back during the time of the eighth amendment, the judges decided in a Supreme Court case and the people decided in a referendum on the right to information and the right to travel. If someone decided on the right to information and travel, he or she had actually decided to allow people to proceed but to do it in another jurisdiction. This Bill simply brings it back home and provides for it here.

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