Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

This is an interesting debate. When conscientious objection is made into an issue, some are under the impression that there is no conscientious objection clause in the Bill. I have read it and it has been mentioned here, but it is being covered over. The fact is that no doctor, student doctor, nurse, midwife or, as the Minister said, pharmacist will be required to take part in any of the Bill’s provisions. They will not have to take part in an abortion. That fact is being lost. It is a point which is worth fighting for and should be acknowledged. The Bill’s provisions will not apply to any professional who does not wish to take part. That is absolutely clear and I am satisfied that the Bill’s provisions on conscientious objection are broadly based.

Will the Minister set out the position on pharmacists? He gave assurances on Committee Stage that the provisions would apply to pharmacists. Why is he not tabling amendments in that regard? Will he explain clearly why they do not need to be mentioned in the legislation, despite the fact that he says the provisions apply to them? I certainly want reassurance before I vote.

The issue of referral came as a complete surprise to me at the start of this debate. When the 2013 legislation was going through, there were several amendments on the issue. There were certainly some Members on the pro-life side of the debate in the Seanad who put forward straightforward amendments proposing that there be referral to another medical practitioner. Now other Members want in their amendments to delete the obligation to refer. There is a division of opinion, matters move on and people grab on to particular issues.

I have not heard a complaint about practice in the past five years from some doctors who feel there was a breach of their right to conscientiously object. If there has been a problem, will somebody set it out? No doctor has been obliged in any circumstance to take part under the 2013 legislation, just as they will not be obliged to do so under this legislation. No problem in that regard has been demonstrated. I stand to be corrected, but I have no evidence which shows that there has been a problem. I wonder how great an issue this will be in practice.

Not every doctor will be happy with the final legislation. However, the Minister has given assurances that the mere provision by a doctor of a helpline number to patients will mean that he or she was fulfilling the requirement to refer. My understanding from talking to doctors is that the majority who conscientiously object will be satisfied with this. I wonder just how many will think it is a step too far for them. If I were a doctor, I would probably conscientiously object. However, I would certainly have no difficulty with referral. It is for others to deal with their consciences. This is not a matter on which one individual in the medical profession or the Dáil can dictate to anybody else, particularly in the light of the referendum result.

We need to be absolutely clear with the public as there is much confusion. Yesterday an upset nurse rang me. She was worried that she would have to take part in abortions when she would conscientiously object to it. As a lawyer and a legislator, I gave her my assurance that in no circumstance would she have to take part in abortions. She was reassured by me. However, there is so much misinformation on what people will be obliged to do or not to do that we need to keep going back to what is actually included in the law, not what people might fear might be in it.

I will reserve my position on voting until I listen to what the Minister has to say. For the majority of doctors who conscientiously object, the Bill will be satisfactory.

See this speech in context