Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Conscientious objection is an important issue, which has been well rehearsed in this debate. I fear we are beginning to stray back into Second Stage speeches. If I may, I will bring it down to the legislation. Conscientious objection is incredibly important and it is fully protected. It is in the legislation. There are two parts to it. There is the right of the medical practitioner not to be involved. It is as clear as day that this right is provided for and I have heard no one, on any side, suggest that it is not. The second issue is what obligations are required in respect of transfer of care. This will apply mainly to GPs. The Minister confirmed to me on Committee Stage that a GP will have met his or her objections on transfer of care by providing the woman with the number for a 24-7 helpline. There may be GPs who believe even that is too much. The vast majority of GPs who will conscientious object and have approached me have said they are satisfied with an obligation on transfer of care which concerns nothing more than giving the woman a 24-7 helpline phone number. That is it. It is very important but it is relatively straightforward.

I will speak briefly now about the amendments. Amendment No. 47 gives medical practitioners the ability to conscientiously object. I agree with this amendment from Deputies Mattie McGrath, Nolan, Tóibín and others but I will not support it because it is almost exactly, word for word, what is already in the legislation. I have checked and double-checked and I can find no difference. I agree with it. The wording in the legislation, however, has been passed by the Office of the Attorney General and professional drafters, and this amendment has not. For that reason, I will stick with the legislation. The amendment is a restatement.

Amendment No. 48 quite reasonably refers to pharmacists and seeks protection for them. Pharmacists must be able to conscientiously object. The Minister might confirm, as he did on Committee Stage, that conscientious objection for pharmacists is fully protected in the legislation and guidelines governing pharmacists.

Amendment No. 49 is my amendment. We discussed this on Committee Stage. I wanted to be certain not only that the right of doctors, nurses and midwives to conscientiously object will be completely protected but that the right of students to do so will also be protected. I have discussed this with the Minister. I acknowledge that he has, in turn, tabled amendments Nos. 52 and 53 to do that. For exactly the same reason as I stated in respect of amendment No. 47, namely, that the Minister's amendments have been passed by the Office of the Attorney General whereas mine has not, I will withdraw my amendment and support the Minister's because that is the version approved by the Office of the Attorney General and the Government. My understanding is that will give full conscientious protection to all students. That is very important.

Amendment No. 50 requires someone who conscientiously objects to notify the Minister for Health that he or she has done so. I do not believe that is a reasonable thing for people to have to do and I will not support the amendment.

Amendment No. 51 proposes to delete the obligation for referral. The ability of a GP, midwife or a nurse to conscientiously object is fully protected. The Minister confirmed on Committee Stage, and he might do so here again, that it is protected in general practice. It is also protected in an acute care setting. A midwife, nurse or doctor can inform his or her employer that he or she is conscientiously objecting and cannot therefore be roistered on or be coerced into being involved. That, too, is very important. Amendment No. 51, however, would delete any obligation of referral. I will not support it for a few reasons. My understanding from the doctors I have spoken to is that it is standard medical practice, here and around the world, that doctors will not simply wash their hands of a patient and leave him or her in a particular situation. As Deputy Kelleher said earlier, while that might not pose too much of a problem for some women presenting in Ireland, there are others for whom it could present a problem. They could be in great distress. They may have been raped or may be under coercion. There are all manner of reasons that women in vulnerable situations will present to a GP. It is not reasonable for any doctor to state he or she is simply not getting involved and off the patient should go. The doctor has an obligation, which in this case requires no more than that he or she tell the patient that there is a 24-7 helpline staffed at all times by qualified medical professionals who are able to talk about counselling and the options available and, if the patient wishes, to direct that patient to a GP who has opted in.

If the only thing the doctor has to do is provide that telephone number, that is absolutely reasonable. I do not believe the referral measure should be deleted. I will be supporting amendments Nos. 52 and 53 from the Minister because they ensure conscientious objection covers students, which is important.

Amendment No. 54 concerns pharmacists and I will not support it. Pharmacists should be protected and I hope the Minister will clarify the legislation under which they are protected. Will he provide clarity on the various pressing issues raised?

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