Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I will also speak to the amendments, as I have done all week. Section 24(3) states: "A person who has a conscientious objection referred to in subsection (1)shall, as soon as may be, make such arrangements for the transfer of care of the pregnant woman concerned as may be necessary...". Deputy Brassil raised the issue of what exactly the transfer of care is. Deputy Donnelly raised it several times on Committee Stage and I am still not satisfied with the answer. This is the nub of the issue. Does the transfer of care mean the handing over of a telephone number by a receptionist or does it mean a doctor handing over the files of his patient? What exactly is transfer of care? I am not satisfied with the answer I have been given so far.

I have spoken in person to many doctors, nurses and midwives who have grave concerns. As Deputy Ó Cuív put it, when they look at the patient they see two patients. Not everyone does but that is the reality. The reason they find it very difficult to refer this person on is that they know another life will be ended.

I am aware that the people have spoken. They spoke strongly in large numbers. The eighth amendment no longer exists within the Constitution and abortion is a reality in this country. At the same time, there are serious issues in the health services with recruitment and retention, and if these medical practitioners are not listened to, the situation will get worse.

Recently I met a midwife who told me that she will no longer carry on as a midwife in the new year but she has asked to be transferred to the care of the elderly because she has a serious conscientious objection. She is pro-life. She feels that, through no one's fault, she may find herself in a position one day where she may be asked to participate in an abortion or that she may be in a room where a baby is being born and another baby may be being aborted in the room next door, and she just cannot put herself in that situation. She is a nurse of 14 years but she has decided, because she cannot put herself in that situation, to opt for the care of the elderly. Others will follow her.

I welcome the clarity in relation to the student doctors, student nurses and student midwives. It was an important amendment I had worked on with Deputy Donnelly.

The Minister stated that he believes he has been in consultation with the GPs, but all through this referendum, I believe, from day one, there was no consultation with the GPs. That is regrettable. Their voices were not listened to. It does not matter whether they heard it first on Committee Stage, on the radio or in the media. At the end of the day, they should have heard it first from the Minister or from the Department of Health. They should have been consulted.

The right to freedom of conscience is a fundamental right and it is protected by the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights. No person should be required by force of law to take an innocent life. I believe that these medical practitioners, these nurses, doctors and midwives, have genuine concerns. It is very important that they are listened to. As I stated last week when speaking about older people, we face a winter of discontent in the health service and we certainly do not want to lose any more health workers. It is very important that their voices are heard in this.

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