Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I find it hard to listen to the Minister of State talking about insolvency legislation and what it protects and does not. It is absolutely useless because the Government allowed a bank veto. It was a waste of time.

Deputy McGuinness pointed out that there were 125 meetings with vulture funds between 2013 and 2016 but that they would not meet the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. The Minister of State's efforts to address that do not amount to much. He stated, "The principal rationale for the Department’s routine engagement with such funds is that it allows the Department to obtain market intelligence from firms that have invested in or will invest in the Irish economy". The Minister of State should give us a break. He boasts of how neither he nor the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, have met these people. Could the previous Minister for Finance make the same boast because most of this happened on his watch? He could not have.

To digress for a minute, in the budget in 2013 the Government set up legislation that allowed the formation of real estate investment trusts, REITs. On 16 January 2014, I said in here to the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan:

The Government might view real estate investment trusts, REITs, as a quick fix measure to get rid of properties on the books of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, and the banks, but questions must be asked about the increased corporatisation of property, with little financial gain for the State. REITs are not taxed on their rental income as long as they pay 85% of it to their shareholders as a dividend, they are exempt from corporation tax as long as their income relates to rental income and non-resident investors are also exempt from Irish capital gains tax. There must surely be implications for the rental market in the years ahead.

The Minister assured me:

it is not expected that REIT ownership of property will reach the level of concentration at which a distortion of competition in the market may occur. ... it is expected that rental values in the Irish market should continue to be determined by normal market forces and not by the presence or absence of REIT landlords. ... I also wish to highlight to the Deputy that potential benefits for property tenants were a motivating factor in the introduction of the REIT framework ... It is hoped that the introduction of this type of professional property management into the Irish market will, in the long term, help to standardise and improve management standards across the rental property sector as a whole, which would be of benefit to both investors and tenants.

I replied:

The Minister says that the amount of property held by REITs around the world tends to be small. However, given that such a bank of property is going to flood our market from NAMA and the banks in the next few years, that will probably not remain so here. The rationale behind REITs is to allow people to invest in property without having to manage it themselves. It is a stockmarket version of absentee landlordism. The investors do not have to pay a lot of tax but are buying up large sections of property here.

Those investment funds and vulture funds have bought up a huge section of Ireland at a huge cost to the Irish people. There is a difference between a vulture fund and an investment fund but neither of them tends to behave very well. Vulture funds probably have been more aggressive in that such a fund tends to buy stressed assets and move them on fairly quickly. I have heard the Minister of State imply in the past that one could make a deal with them but I have had some direct dealings with a serious vulture fund and they are not very nice people to deal with. In the case of the REITs, Deputy McGuinness spoke about the 125 meetings the vulture funds had with the Department of Finance.

According to freedom of information, Mr. Bill Nolan had 67 meetings in two years in these Houses at which he lobbied. Did the Department and Ministers not have anything else to? It was obviously worth Mr. Nolan's while. I repeat that he had 67 meetings in two years. How mad is that? Despite this, the Government cannot get these same people to attend a meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. Does it support the committees or view them as a hindrance? Does it support them only when in opposition? It beggars belief that the Government thinks it is alright that these guys, who have had such influence on what has gone on in Ireland in recent years, should not have to answer questions. That is not fair, although I understand why they do not come in here. It is because they would not like their behaviour to be scrutinised. I also understand why the Government is not pushed about them having come in here to be held to account. It is because that would completely expose the Government. The Minister of State, Deputy David Stanton, can shake his head all he likes. The truth will out in time. I will not name people in the Chamber in connection with people making connections with the Department of Finance and organising for some deals to go ahead. As I said, the truth will out in time and it will not be good for the Department of Finance. I assure the Government of that.

The Minister of State, Deputy D'Arcy, referred to "the potential harm flowing from this element of the motion in terms of promoting Ireland as a good place to do business and to make investments". I am bemused by that statement. I do not know how some of these comments can be made with a straight face. The Minister of State continued:

However, while Members of the House have alluded to evidence that has been provided to them on misbehaviour, the report itself does not produce any such evidence. The report states anecdotal evidence suggests that a disproportionate number of complaints made to public representatives by mortgage holders are mortgage holders whose loans are now owned by vulture funds.

My God. Deputy McGuinness pointed out that the confidence and supply arrangement includes a promise to protect the family home. Will the Minister of State be honest and admit the Government has failed to protect the family home? I know many people who have lost their homes and many others who will lose them in the future. That is the truth. Why does the Government pretend that is not the case? I do not understand that. Who does it think it is kidding? The Irish people know that the vulture funds have wreaked untold damage across this island.

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