Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Yes. Therefore, outsourcing is not at the heart of this scandal. We can have ideological debates all day long about outsourcing, but the source of the scandal is non-disclosure of personal information - women's information - that was withheld from them. Lt us be clear that that is the scandal.

On open disclosure, yes, we need legal changes. Deputy Róisín Shortall is entirely correct and I will work with her and anyone else in this House to ensure it will apply to individuals. They did not do this in the United Kingdom where they watered it down. We need it to apply to individuals and, I believe, institutions. That is my intention and it is Dr. Scally's recommendation. I will work with the Deputy and others to make sure it will happen.

As we have all said, we do not just need legal change, we also need cultural change. While it might not have had legal underpinning, clearly the policy of open disclosure was not implemented and was contradictory. I do not buy into the narrative that we blame all doctors and that all doctors are bad. We have many dedicated healthcare professionals. However, the ones who said what we read in the report and the ones who said what Deputy Joe O'Reilly illustrated to me on the issue affecting women who used transvaginal mesh - those who speak to women like that - have let us all and their profession down. We need a cultural change.

Let me be clear that there will be a further investigation because Dr. Scally is clear on it. While I do not have it in front of me, from memory, there are at least three places where he calls for a further inquiry. The CPL laboratory is not used today and we cannot let anyone suggest it is. That is one issue.

On the issue of procurement in general, Dr. Scally is not suggesting anything was illegal, but, clearly, more work needs to be done on the issue of procurement and contracts. He also makes the point about having a common data set in order that we can see the same data about all of the laboratories in a transparent way.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked about the issue of leaking. Let me say whoever leaked it was absolutely cruel. While I do not speak for the patient advocates, like many in the House, I have got to know them extraordinarily well. Obviously, the report was not leaked, but someone who knew something about some element of it leaked it. It was suggested that was the report. It caused huge upset and was absolutely cruel to do it.

On governance, I agree with the points made about the HSE board and that there is a need to have two patient representatives on it. We need to use the report as momentum in delivering in that regard.

Deputies Catherine Connolly and Alan Kelly asked about the continuance of the audit. Dr. Scally said the idea of an audit was laudable and we all get that, given that we know the way that it was done was so poor. There were two key recommendations on the issue of an audit among his 50 recommendations, recommendations Nos. 26 and 27. They state, effectively, that patients must be at the heart of developing and designing audits. We will work to deliver this before an audit recommences. It is very important that the audit be correct and that we do not see a repeat of the mistakes made.

On the issue of political mishandling, Deputy Róisín Shortall makes a fair point. I include myself in that regard. Mistakes were made by everyone, including me. I think many of us made mistakes in trying to do the right thing, but there are serious lessons to be learned by all of us, on all sides of this House, and elements of the media in how we deal with an issue in a calm, rational manner and establish the facts, which is what the people affected always want to happen.

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