Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy and welcome him back. I hope he had a nice summer.

I want, of course, to start by joining him in acknowledging the really valuable and important work that is done in section 39 organisations, whether it is hospices around the country, like St. Francis Hospice, which is very near to where I live, whether it is disability organisations around the country or whether it is people involved in social care. I think everyone in this House will understand and respect the important work that is carried out by these organisations and their staff.

As has been explained in the past, section 39 organisations are not part of the public sector and the staff in them are not public servants. As the Deputy pointed out, on average these organisations get 75% of their funding from the State but, as we all know, "on average" does not mean "in all cases". In some cases the funding from the Government may be as little as €10,000 or €11,000, whereas in some cases almost all of the funding may come from the public purse, and it is different in different circumstances. In almost all cases these organisations have had budget increases in recent years. There has not been a budget freeze for section 39 organisations in recent years. In fact, the money paid to section 39 organisations, taken in aggregate, or on average, as the Deputy may use the term, has increased every year in the last couple of years.

Analysis, which is not yet complete, has been done by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It shows that the situation is very different across these different bodies. In some cases they have paid increases and made pay restoration, for example, in some hospices, whereas in others they have not. In some places they are entirely compliant with public sector pay policy and mirror almost exactly public sector pay policy and pay rates. In others they do not, and in some cases they use that flexibility to pay more or pay less, as they deem appropriate for the activities in their area.

We know from the analysis so far that some can afford to pay and some cannot. The fact there is such a difference across all of these different bodies means it is a complicated problem to solve, but it is something we want to solve. It is a matter that is now being considered by the Workplace Relations Commission. The Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, recently met SIPTU, one of the main unions involved, and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has met the head of ICTU to discuss this. We want to resolve it. We want to include in the Estimates for 2019 some moneys to resolve this situation but that requires coming to an agreement, and we have not yet come to an agreement on how that can be done.

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