Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. As I have pointed out previously, there is a problem for builders. People have been giving out about them and they have a lot to answer for down through the years. At the end of the day, however, we need builders to build houses. There is also a problem with getting the money. As we know, investment companies are looking for up to 15% and a share of the profits, which is causing a major problem. The reality is that if builders do not have money, they are not able to build houses, whether we like it or not.

We need to make sure of one thing. The State needs to safeguard itself so it has a security cushion that protects it and ensures it does not put itself in a position that leaves the taxpayer exposed. While I hope that does not happen, if something went wrong, it would be like what happened before. We need to make sure we are covered.

While I am open to correction on this, I have heard that some €60 million will be put into this. I have looked at how this will fill the gap between the 20% or 30% equity in order to bring it up to the 50% that the banks will lend. The Government gives a figure of 6,000 houses. However, if €60 million relates to the 20% equity, and if an average house costs €300,000, which would not be overdoing it in Dublin although they would be built for less down the country, while my maths might be wrong, when we add the equity of 20% and the 50% more that would be borrowed, I can only see it working out at about 1,000 houses. As I said, I am open to correction on that but, going on the figures I have tallied, either the houses are very cheap or some figure is not right.

It is also important that the interest rate is low. Even for businesses, we have seen loans that were Government-backed but, to be honest, the rates were higher than bank rates. We have to make sure when delivering houses that we deliver them at a good price.

Another issue that will have to be addressed shortly is investment in sites in the larger cities. Investment funds come from pensioners in different countries who have made investments. Sooner or later, they will realise a good shot of their money is going to be lost because the price of the site is too high to build. This has nothing to do with Government and I am not blaming Government for it. There are investment crowds sitting on other people's money, thinking they are going to make a fortune out of the Irish people but, down the road, they might get a ferocious shock. I believe they would be as well to get the shock now and release the land, so people can get building on it, than they would be to get that shock in a year or two.

We have to take many different approaches. While we can have an agency like NAMA, I am a firm believer that money needs to be released so that, for example, institutes of technology and other colleges can build student accommodation.

That is an angle at which we could hit things fairly quickly. There is a great deal going on in respect of housing, including the issuing of policy documents and so on. One can give money to builders, but if we fail to cut out the paperwork, nothing will be done. If people have to go through an involved planning process, they will be held up. We need a system that gets shovels in the ground fairly quickly.

I cannot understand the following but perhaps the Minister of State will be able to enlighten me later. We have people designing houses in local authorities and the Department. They create separate designs for social housing in Galway, Donegal, Dublin and so on. I cannot for the life of me understand why we do not agree on a single design, whether it is a three or four-bedroom house, and go with those drawings in the different parts of the country. Instead, we are paying these people large sums of money to add in little frills and waste money. That is something that needs doing.

It is surprising to hear that there are people refusing to take houses worth €500,000. I have put down a question to the Department on that. It is alarming. It may not be many people, but it is surprising to hear nevertheless.

We can have the policies and we can fast-track the planning. Every bit of money helps. However, I read today that credit unions have €9 billion which is available to help, but no one seems to want it. A bit of interest on a euro at home is nearly better than giving the AIB extra money. The Government can, with the best will in the world, provide all of that and put the foundations in place as best it can, but, as Deputy Murphy said last week, it is like fighting a war and one has to hit it hard. One has to go hard at building houses because there is a major problem. We need delivery and more delivery from people who know how to deliver, not from those who are drawing up policy or engaged in planning. With the greatest of respect to them, they are marvellous at that. However, until one gets hammering on the ground, fast delivery and pressure on builders, we have a problem.

One can give builders money, but it should not be all sunshine for them. One has to ensure they deliver too. We have to introduce a system whereby we let them build a certain number of units before equity is released to let them move on again. I am fearful. I was talking to a certain company today. With the different things happening in construction and infrastructure, I am fearful of a labour deficit. We need to man up fairly quickly.

We need to let the credit unions facilitate more construction. While the State is getting money at less than 1% from the European Investment Bank, we would be as well to give that through money Irish people have invested here if it is signable for five, ten or 15 years, whatever the agreement would be. Unless we hit this fast, the problem will be here again. I do not blame the Minister because no one will solve it overnight. However, we hear figure after figure. Someone will say the figures are not correct and someone else will come back with other figures. At the end of the day, it is about supply and demand, as with anything. If one does not have enough of something, it is expensive and if one has plenty of it, the price is kept down.

I heard an interesting debate on the radio as I came in yesterday. It was about landlords. Many people like to kick them and perhaps many of them deserve it. However, a lot of them are moving out of the system, and rightly so. While I am the first to say tenants need protection, I heard of an incident where a person was not paying rent and managed to wrangle a full year in the accommodation. There was no protection there. Let it be clear that I am fully in favour of ensuring that anyone renting has proper protections, but if a cowboy does not want to pay his rent, that must be looked at too. We have to ensure the scales are balanced.

There is, rightly, a serious focus on places where there are housing shortages, but there seems to be no thinking about whether we could create a commuter belt outside Dublin with good public transport links. Perhaps houses could be built in the Minister of State's constituency in Meath or in Kildare with a transport infrastructure to allow that. As infrastructure improves, travel times get shorter. Unless we focus on balanced regional development, we will be in trouble. Dublin is like a magnet. While that is positive in some ways, it is a torment to people who are trying to travel here for work or find a place to live and bring up a family. It is tough going. What one pays in rent here a month, one might not even get in wages in another part of the country. What people have to pay is ferocious and I sympathise with them because of it.

When money is being provided by the Government, there should be a buy-in from builders on social housing. We must also think of the young nurses, gardaí and others who are starting off in life and who, to be brutally honest, cannot afford a house in most of our cities. They can hardly afford the rent. If the State has land, it should set aside a certain percentage for those workers who are necessary in any society. We have to look after them above all. This is the generation coming up and it is sad to see that some of them cannot afford homes. If one speaks to young gardaí or nurses, one knows they have damn all left after paying rent. It is tough going.

Perhaps the Minister of State will discuss later whether we are leaving ourselves open to losses in the Bill. I am not saying we should screw people or cripple them. However, we are paying money out here.

While there will be certain stringent conditions, we must ensure there is some security in case it all goes belly up so that the taxpayer will not be left footing the Bill. Many, who never went near housing and who never were involved in some of the madness that went on, are still paying the bill. It has probably stopped many people's progression. Thankfully, people are starting to recover.

We also need to put in a strategy. While it was good to hear Deputies Breathnach and O'Dowd speaking about vacant houses in their areas that the local authorities seem to be renovating rapidly, there are many areas where I do not know what is going on but on which we do not seem to be moving. This is what I would have always argued for down through the years - one should reward the person who produces the goods and not tolerate those who do not. There are many such places around the country. I have seen it myself. I have seen houses that have been 12 or 14 years sitting there that one might tell someone about and they might not even be on a register. That is damnable. Local authorities should have all their property recorded. That needs looking into. While the Government is trying to improve matters, responsibility has to start being sought from some. Either one is fit to deliver or one is not. We need a body that will be ruthless at delivering houses. That is my honest opinion. It is like what we used to say one time when we were at pipelines, that whatever comes in the way, one must drive on and keep going.

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