Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am very appreciative of the contributions of all the Deputies. They help me and my officials as we continue to work on issues that have been of such profound significance to so many people for such a long time, as Deputy Connolly just indicated. I am aware of this and of the various circumstances and research findings the Deputy has just shared in the Chamber. They are exceedingly helpful and we are listening. We are attempting to offer a way for 2018 under my leadership.

I will try to respond to the issues raised to the best of my ability. We will continue to come back to them, not least in the context of the Bill. Deputies Connolly, Boyd Barrett, Mitchell and others mentioned the investigation of other records and the specific further analysis I have asked for. I see that as a really important and sensible step in terms of the methodology of approaching the 100,000 files that are under the jurisdiction of the State. I have not said that is the end. I am very open to moving beyond that. We have tried to design the process in such a way that it will be relatively quick and so we will know that, after the first four months approximately, we will be in a better position to determine how we might move forward. Much of this concerns the issue of methodology, something of which, as a former researcher, I am aware. Officials are now identifying a methodology to ascertain whether they can consider some aspects of a huge number of files in the initial stage in order to determine whether something should be done next and, if so, what. From having listened to other stakeholders, in addition to Deputies here, I realise it may be recommended that we need to go further, in which case a methodology will be presented, but it strikes me that in order to move forward in this regard, we might also need to engage a wider group of stakeholders, particularly but not only inclusive of advocates, adoptees, archivists, relevant journalists - some of whom Deputy Connolly mentioned - and genealogy experts. Deputies have called for this. It may be that drawing on some the wider expertise, which seems to be what is needed, might help us to proceed more effectively than by using more traditional forms of research.

4 o’clock

I have received, as have other Deputies, a number of representations from people who believe they are illegally registered. Those are people who have come forward as distinct from us examining the 100,000 records we have, and they are being examined in a particular way as part of the research. Those are a few examples that might impact on the methodology in terms of moving forward. I do not want to pre-empt any decision that may be taken but from listening to what is being said on the airwaves, this is an issue that runs very deep across many thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people's lives. We have an obligation to find ways to ensure that we discover the evidence of illegal registrations to the best of our ability. That answers the question in terms of the initial investigative research.

In terms of the records, and people have identified this also, we have 100,000 cases that are under the jurisdiction of the State. An estimated 50,000 records, although the figure is probably more than that, are not in the possession of the State such as those in adoption societies where records have not yet transferred to either Tusla or the Adoption Authority of Ireland, AAI. I refer to PACT, Cunamh, St. Brigid's Adoption Agency, nursing homes, health professionals and private individuals. There are many more records that are not in our possession to allow us do something about it. As Deputies are aware, the Adoption (Information and Tracing) Bill would provide a statutory basis to acquire those transfers but there may be other ways to do that. I understand the urgency expressed by the Deputies about this issue. As Deputy Mitchell said, these things are going on. I could voluntarily request the transfer of records but there are potential difficulties with that. It may not be clear who has what records. A voluntary request could be ignored or complied with in part only. The holders may cite data protection issues. I am not saying that will not happen but there are difficulties with that also.

Deputy Rabbitte raised the issue of capacity, particularly within Tusla, and conducting further research. I am aware, and the Deputy is right to raise it, that to conduct further research to ensure that information and tracing service will require additional capacity, both to eradicate the current waiting times for people, apart from the 126 or the others who are now suspect, as well as the increased numbers that will necessarily be the case in light of the changing context. I am aware of that capacity issue. It is about money, but it is also about people. We need to find a solution urgently to that issue.

Deputy Burton said that we do not want to age out this issue. I agree with her. That is why I am trying to initiate and lead a way forward to ensure there is a deeper sense of urgency in light of what we have found in that high bar of evidence. She said that people have a right to their personal history, which is a very helpful way of expressing it, as well as a right to information and tracing.

Members referred to the fact that 740 other cases were identified by Tusla, and they may be added to the list. My understanding is that was part of the number it started with but it sifted through those and did the cross-referencing with the Adoption Authority of Ireland and the General Register Office, GRO. Some of those dropped out in terms of coming to a higher level of certainty in terms of evidence of illegal adoptions because, as the Deputies are aware, when we have that number of cases, we need first to move towards contacting the people. The State requires a high level of certainty, higher than would be required in terms of making those kinds of approaches. It is different if people are coming towards us or indicating that they would like us to investigate something.

In terms of the Bill, Sinn Féin Members believe that people ought to have a right and unfettered access to information. Deputy Burton and others are probably in agreement with that. I mentioned meeting Deputies and Senators yesterday with my officials. I would wish to pursue that in the context of the Bill. I want to push the boundaries as far as we can in terms what is constitutionally permissible but we hear what they are saying. As I said, we are operating in a changed context and I hope that gives us more possibility. I have not covered all the questions but we will have other opportunities to discuss them.

In terms of the number of actions that need to happen, I wonder if it is time to consider a process of telling and hearing the truth about the way women and children were historically mistreated in Ireland and expanding and correcting our national record of the development of the State and our treatment of one another in it. There is a social history model coming from the mother and baby homes commission. That will be helpful in that regard but I refer again to a mode of transitional justice. Moving from a legacy of human rights abuses requires us to acknowledge, record, accept and apologise for those abuses and our collective responsibility for them. It is a process that perhaps could be survivor centred and designed with the needs and the hopes of survivors in mind.

It may be time to consider a scope. We are living in a present that is still attempting to respond appropriately to the Magdalen laundries, the mother and baby homes and this adoption illegality issues. We may need to reckon with our national history of gender and justice, inclusive of the ways in which it has impacted on boys. I take Deputy Martin Kenny's comments about home boys as well as men. These are other issues I will be considering as we move forward.

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