David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am very happy to join in the debate on the Maternity Protection (Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas) Bill 2018. I commend Deputy Rabbitte and Deputy Smyth on bringing it before the House. I also commend Deputy Butler on her contribution to the Bill.

As presented by the Deputies, the Bill provides for female Members of the Oireachtas to have an entitlement of 18 weeks of maternity leave and up to eight weeks of what is termed additional maternity leave. As a matter of interest, I note that the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 and 2004 provide for 26 weeks of maternity leave with an additional 16 weeks unpaid maternity leave.

In principle, I and my Government colleagues completely support the introduction of supports for Oireachtas Members who become parents, including adoptive parents. However, there are a number of fundamental issues that we need to tease out. I will set these out in synopsis, then I will elaborate on the wider context of Government policy to promote gender equality, after which I will return to the Bill.

In short, there are legal questions to be answered and the Government will seek guidance in that regard and there are also questions which I want to put to the Bill's sponsors and to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, which I understand is also doing some work in this area.

First, I invite the Bill's sponsors to clarify the core aims of the Bill, having regard to the fact that Oireachtas Members, as office holders, are automatically entitled to a salary as a matter of law, with limited exceptions, from the period they sign the roll until they are no longer a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, regardless of attendance. That is a given. Having regard to the constitutional concerns and the powers of the Oireachtas itself, I am also asking the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and the associated reform committees to advise on possible provisions that could be made under existing Standing Orders to provide for maternity leave with particular reference to pairing arrangements and to identify the scope for amending these orders and the work, if any, under way to ensure a family-friendly work environment, as has been mentioned.

I know the Ceann Comhairle has a particular interest in this area as he was the original sponsor of a similar Bill in 2013. The Government will seek advice as to whether it is constitutional to legislate for Members of the Oireachtas to be absent from duty and how they might be remunerated during any such absence. We also need to define what absent from duty or leave means in the context of a Member of the Oireachtas. Can a Member on leave, for example, table parliamentary questions? How are constituents to be represented by a Member who is on leave?

Should we be advised that there is no constitutional impediment, the question could then arise as to whether the appropriate statutory framework lies in the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 to 2004 or the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) Acts pursuant to the provisions of Article 15 of the Constitution or elsewhere. Article 15 states that the Oireachtas may make provision by law for the payment of allowances to the Members of each House thereof in respect of their duties as public representatives and for the grant to them of free travelling and any such facilities, if any, in connection with those duties as the Oireachtas may determine.

I do agree that we should discuss this matter and indeed the related matter of paternity leave, which the Government introduced recently. I am pleased to report there has been a good uptake of that.

When we were introducing that measure, some male Members of these Houses who were about to become fathers wanted to know if they could avail of paternity leave but that was not possible at the time.

All Members of the House will agree that we must do our utmost to support working mothers in the workplace in general. Last May the then Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald and I launched the National Strategy for Women and Girls 2017-2020. The strategy agreed by government has as its overall goal to change attitudes and practices in order to encourage and support the full participation of women and girls in education, employment and public life at all levels and to improve services for women and girls, with priority given to those experiencing, or at risk of experiencing, the poorest outcomes. I am also wholeheartedly supportive of the intention underpinning this Bill which is to encourage women into public life and to promote work-life balance in the workplace. I am sure this view is shared by all Members of the House.

The aforementioned national strategy includes a set of actions specifically aimed at supporting parents. The Government has also undertaken to publish proposals to expand paid leave in the first year of a child's life and to legislate for those proposals as soon as possible, as set out in the programme for Government. I also remind the House that over the past three budgets the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has secured an increase in the childcare budget by an unprecedented 80%, reflecting the Government's commitment to parents and children. The development of the affordable childcare scheme, which was announced in budget 2017, will also improve matters. This scheme will radically redesign how support is delivered to make high quality childcare more accessible and affordable for families in Ireland.

However, while the central intention of the legislation before us is sound, the Bill does not consider some important legal and procedural issues. One element of the Bill that we will need to consider is whether there are provisions possible under Standing Orders to provide for maternity leave with particular reference to pairing arrangements and to identify the scope for amending any such orders and the work, if any, under way to ensure a family friendly work environment. The Bill makes no provision for pairing arrangements during the Member's absence. Such pairing arrangements can be complex, particularly where the Member is not a member of a political party. However, the absence of a Member for up to 26 weeks could require some form of arrangement by the Oireachtas. As such, the Bill could potentially impact on the Standing Orders of the Oireachtas in respect of Members' attendance or absence. There are issues here that we must tease out. It is also important to note that the Bill potentially affords Members of the Oireachtas an entitlement to maternity leave that is normally reserved for employees. Members do not otherwise qualify for the various social welfare schemes in place to support workers when they are sick or on adoptive leave. Equally, Members are not covered by other workplace related legislation such as unfair dismissal legislation or legislation concerning the organisation of working time. The Deputies' Bill, while laudable, potentially categorises Members as employees rather than as officeholders but there is an important distinction to be made between the two.

The Bill does not propose any arrangements to address the parliamentary or constituency business that would arise during the Member's absence. It does not consider how constituency representations or concerns would be handled during that period. Does leave of absence mean complete leave from the job rather than just from Leinster House? Does it include leave from the constituency office and all that entails? Deputies know that constituency work constitutes a second job for many Members. Some people even say that we come to Leinster House for a rest, such are the demands on us at constituency level due, in part, to our multi-seat constituency parliamentary system. In this context, it would be important for the Bill to undergo a consultation process on Committee Stage to consider how business would be addressed and to consider the arrangements in place in other parliaments. The possibility of putting in place a system whereby a Member could choose a substitute during the period of absence might be one means of addressing this issue. To allow for substitution or an alternate might have constitutional implications, however. If an alternate system was put in place it might be possible to allow the alternate to replace a Member when vacancies arise through resignation or death. This could mean an end to by-elections, which would be a radical step. A list system could be devised similar to the system employed in the European Parliament. That could work here. Of course, the alternates would have to have the best interests of the Members at heart and be operating on their behalf. Perhaps, given the implications for electoral law, this is an issue that could be considered by the Citizens' Assembly. In the event of a Member taking maternity or paternity leave it would be reasonable to expect that extra support would be put in place during the absence of the Member. This could have cost implications for the Exchequer. If a Member is absent and there is no substitute, there is an increased workload in the constituency office. In those circumstances, someone may have to step in to take up that workload in the absence of the Member which would have cost implications.

In view of the concerns with the Bill and the issues which still need to be addressed, the Government is reserving the right to bring forward amendments, as appropriate. The issues arising will be conveyed to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice and Equality in advance of Committee Stage and to the Bill's sponsors. The Government is not opposing the Bill. As I said, I welcome the debate which is both interesting and topical. Members of the Oireachtas are one of the few groups in the country that cannot avail of maternity or paternity leave. Some colleagues here have had babies recently and I congratulate them on what is a fantastic event. One particular colleague told me that she was in hospital, having just delivered her baby, when a constituent phoned her to raise an issue. She spoke of not being able to take any time off. These are issues that we must discuss and together we might come up with solutions. We must find out what happens in other parliaments too.

I thank the Deputies for bringing forward this Bill this evening and for facilitating a debate. Let us work together to see if there are ways that we can encourage more women to come into the Oireachtas. I have been in this House for 21 years at this stage, for my sins. Since the gender quotas were introduced in the area of candidate selection - one of the five "Cs" - there are more women in the Oireachtas and it is far better as a result. I would love to see the Members here reflecting the population at large, with a 50-50 split between men and women. That is what we should be aiming for and we have made some progress, which I hope will continue.

The national strategy for women and girls refers to advancing socioeconomic equality for women and girls, which is very important. It also refers to advancing the physical and mental health and well-being of women and girls and ensuring their visibility in society and their equal and active citizenship, as well as to advancing women in leadership at all levels. The Deputies mentioned corporate boards and we are actively working to increase the numbers of women on such boards. I hope to announce an initiative in that regard soon. The strategy also aims to combat violence against women and the Government has done a lot of work on that with domestic violence legislation but there is more to be done in that regard. The strategy also refers to embedding gender equality in all decision making which is important too. I commend the strategy, urge Members to read it and if they have any suggestions to improve or add to it, I ask them to bring them to our attention. I try to tell people about the strategy whenever I get a chance because many are unaware of its existence. There are lots of good ideas in it. I chair a task force with representatives of various non-governmental organisations, NGOs, Departments and other agencies which is actively working on the objectives of the strategy.

I thank Deputies Niamh Smyth and Anne Rabbitte once again for bringing this important Bill before the House this evening. We need to progress these issues as best we can. I am not sure what is the answer with respect to the long hours. If a Member lives in south Kerry or north Donegal and the Dáil finishes at 6 p.m., he or she has a long night ahead with nothing to do. That is the other side of that issue. Members like myself, who have to travel long distances to get here prefer to work until 8 p.m or 9 p.m rather than having very little to do all evening. Dublin is a lovely city but I am from Cork.

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