Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputies for participating in the debate. Clearly, if we were designing an education system today we would not be designing one in which virtually 100% of our primary schools are privately owned and 95% of them are denominational. We are working with the system that is in place and trying to reform it to reflect the new realities in Irish society. That is what I am trying to do here.

I recognise that we need to respond to new diversity and that is why I am removing religion as a criterion from 19 out of every 20 primary schools today. The only circumstance where I am leaving it is in respect of minority religions and allowing parents who are of Protestant, Jewish or Muslim faith to get access to a school of their ethos. I agree with Deputy Thomas Byrne that our society has seen the difficulties of religious difference. However, we should not seek to define equality as removing all religion in the way that is being proposed. That is not equality. I think equality of respect allows us to treat each of the groups in a fair and equal way, but not as absolutely geometrically equal.

We are fair to minority religion children, who have only one in every 20 schools to access. We are protecting those children to get access to that one school out of every 20. We are not affording the same protection to a Catholic child, who has 18 out of every 20 schools to choose from and will not have a difficulty in getting into a school of Catholic ethos. We are protecting children of no faith because we are ensuring that 19 out of every 20 schools will not use religion as a criterion in selection. I think it is a fair and balanced way to deal with what has been a very thorny problem. Everyone has articulated the unfairness of people feeling they are forced to baptise their children to get access.

That is not the only thing we are doing to promote greater diversity, however. In recent years we have opened 61 new schools. All of the primary schools have been multidenominational or non-denominational; none has been denominational. The only denominational new school in recent years has been at second level, where denominational schools represent only about half of all schools.

We are introducing an initiative to facilitate the transfer of patronage from schools of the Catholic ethos to other patrons. The former Minister, Ruairí Quinn, initiated a process in this regard but it was not as successful as he had hoped. I have changed it to introduce a new alternative. They are both running together and I believe they will do much better.

We are strengthening the provision to meet the constitutional right of every child not to have to attend religious instruction. This will be enforced by requiring it to be explicitly stated in the admissions policy of religious schools as to how they propose to honour that. We are introducing a charter for parents and students to ensure that they will have more say over time in all of the dimensions of school policy. In the case of multidenominational ETB schools at second level, we will ensure that religion is treated as an option and not as a compulsory subject. We are making several changes which are going to give rise to a much improved environment.

Unlike others, I do not believe that the response we should offer in the name of equality should be to remove religion from every school and thereby facilitate the demise of Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Jewish schools. I do not believe that is equality. If that is equality, then it is a strange definition of it. We have to respect diversity. Diversity is a value in our school system. We need to ensure that when parents have a desire to see their child educated in a school of their religion, they can do so. I do not see why we should vote for the demise of minority religions. In my area, as there are in other Members’ areas, there are Church of Ireland schools surrounded by large Roman Catholic populations. If there were open admissions, these schools would be filled by Roman Catholic children or children of no faith. They would then cease to be minority schools in any sense. That would not be good for our society. It would certainly not be welcomed in my constituency where those schools are valued and are seen as a respect for people who have those values.

Several Deputies asked how one defends treating Catholic children differently to Church of Ireland children. It is a question of proportionality where one is trying to achieve, in so far as is possible, a situation where parents get the choice they want. One applies proportionate rules. With this legislation, where a child has access to one school out of every 20, I give them protection. Where they have access to 18 out of every 20, however, I do not give protection. They cannot use religious rules to select children. We are completely changing the position for children of no religion where they have a small number of largely Educate Together schools from which to choose. Now they will have 19 out of every 20 schools to choose from because religion will not be a criterion within them. The admissions policy of schools will state how they will cater for children of no religion. To be fair, many schools seek to ensure that they respect this.

Deputy Thomas Byrne indicated that he will not move his amendments. I acknowledge that this was a policy Fianna Fáil espoused. For the reasons the Deputy outlined, the catchments do not exist and religion within the catchment would still be a criterion. The proposal we are offering is a better one, having reflected on the consultations we had. I do not agree that scarcity is the issue. It may be that this is more acute in growing urban areas where there is more diversity. However, there will always be popular and unpopular schools. Choices will have to be made. The important thing is that those choices are made fairly and not in a discriminatory way on the basis of religion.

Deputy Thomas Byrne also referred to patronage. There are two systems whereby we are introducing non-denominational or multidenominational schools. One is in the case of new schools. In that case, for a school to qualify and to win a competition, it has to be promoting diversity within the catchment and meet the needs of parents. There are two tests, not just one. Deputy Thomas Byrne might have thought that it will be the parents’ choice and that the majority schools will dictate the outcome. That is not the case because they will have to deliver diversity as a key criterion in their selection. In the other case where we are seeking transfer from the existing majority patron, the survey is of parents. It is to establish if the parents want an alternative to the majority school. That is the purpose of the survey.

On the point raised by Deputies Catherine Martin and Shortall, I do not believe that this will represent discrimination against Catholics. It is a proportionate way of ensuring that as many parents as possible will get the choice they want. Second level is different because it has a much higher level of diversity. That has not been an issue. The consultation I had was always about primary schools where we have this problem.

Deputies Barry and O’Dowd argued that we should go for a complete separation. That would, for example, exclude Educate Together schools because they are private and not State-run. Irish people like the diversity and these different patrons. The ETBs have a State-sponsored alternative for primary schools. I hope we will see the growth of community national schools. Incidentally, they celebrate all religions and welcome the diversity of religious expression. If one goes into a community national school, one will see The Koran, the Bible and other religious symbols. They celebrate them. The strength of these schools is the diversity of religion which is invited in with all its richness. That is a good model in itself.

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