Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the amendments on the appointment of a chairperson and how the ordinary members will be appointed. The first thing that has to be cleared up is the fiasco that happened here last night when we did not know whether we were talking about 13 or 17 members. As a result of some sweetheart deals being done that seem to be getting even cosier in recent months, we have a Bill now that is neither here nor there. It is probably legally unsafe. It was voted on here last night. It will need a good deal of teasing out, although I suppose the cartels in the Seanad will work again to get it passed. Sooner or later, however, the day of reckoning will come, the Bill will not be right but people will be appointed.

It should be noted that much of what judges have to work with around the country has been legislated on by Members in this House. The have guidelines on certain sentences and when they are criticised for being lenient, perhaps we should look at ourselves to see if we have given them too much scope in that regard. That is one area that needs to be examined.

I have a fear that these so-called lay people on the commission will be retired county managers. To me, lay people are ordinary people. They are not people who have been in cosy jobs all their lives who move on when they retire to another bit of an income. As a State, we seem to have a woeful habit of doing things like that.

I am not a lawyer. I never claimed to be one but, in fairness, the likes of Deputy Jim O'Callaghan would have a vast knowledge of the workings of this area and because of what he has gone through over the years in terms of experience, his views should be taken on board because a government is not able to push through every measure. It has to listen to others to make something better but I worry about the Minister, Deputy Ross, who is like the rabbit in the burrow. He is probably looking at the monitor in his office at the moment. He did not show up here at all. This is a measure to appease him in terms of getting a Bill through the Houses. It is to keep him quiet and keep the Government together for another few months but it is not doing it right. Ironically, there have been more judges appointed using the old method in the past two years than ever before even though the Minister's column in the newspapers would lead one to believe the position is much different. Once again, we are speaking out of both sides of our mouth.

We need transparency and to make sure that judges are appointed properly. Everyone agrees with that but we need to make sure also that the educational side of it is not a cartel set up. We must be very clear that the Judiciary must be separate. They have to make their own decisions separate from everything else.

When we look at appointments, and I am not just talking about the Judiciary, it was never someone farming in County Galway, County Kilkenny or elsewhere who got appointed. It was always a person in some public job. In terms of the process, a list is put before the Minister but he or she is nearly told what to do. To be honest, they are told what to pick. I do not see how we can make things better that way.

As legislators, we need to make sure that we bring in something like a bill of quantum to provide guidelines on insurance cases. In terms of sentencing, day in, day out we hear about a judge who gave someone bail. However, that is not the judge's fault because as we have found out, under international law, if a judge does not give legal aid he or she is in trouble. They can be done for miscarriage of justice.

The Attorney General has expressed his views on the Bill, which are alarming. The Attorney General is the Attorney General to the Government and everyone in that situation should be singing off the one hymn sheet. It is alarming that even though the Attorney General described the Bill in a few different ways some months ago we are still powering ahead with it. The only reason I can see for doing that is to tick a little box that was a deal. It should not be about that. We can tick the box but we need to make sure we get the legislation right before we tick it. We must make sure that we take on board the views of Deputies here who have experience in the legal profession. I recognise that the Minister has a legal background but there are other people in the House who have vast experience in that regard. We need to make sure when we bring legislation before the House that it is right. We cannot have a repeat of the fiasco that happened here last night that, allegedly, will be sorted out in the Seanad. The Bill will then come back here and we will go around the merry-go-round again. That is not making progress or sending out the right signals. We need to get this Bill right and make sure that the appointment of people to the commission is done in a proper way and that the Judiciary is recognised as well.

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