Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent) | Oireachtas source

It is ironic that among some of the amendments being discussed we are missing one very important point. We have discussed lay people and their role while at the same time we do not know how many people we are talking about. Is it 13, 17, or what is the figure going to be? That is one of the fundamental issues that we must be clear on, but we have no clarity whatsoever. We are discussing amendments that pertain to their roles while not knowing how many people we are talking about.

I was looking at amendment No. 38. One thing that bothers me greatly is experience. It is the one thing in life that one cannot buy. No matter what one's job or role is or what function one performs in life, any person who is at something longer than somebody else and who has gone through life's trials and tribulations for a longer time than someone else, will have to know more than the other person. When we talk about putting lay people into positions such as we are now, we have to really stand back and consider what we are trying to achieve. It is like what happened many years ago when some people decided the abolition of the dual mandate in local authorities was a good idea. They actually drained many local authorities of years of political experience in one day when they removed Members of the Oireachtas. Looking back, it was not a very smart thing to do. The people who did it will be remembered for a long time for scoring own goals and shooting their own parties in their two feet.

These amendments are like a race to the bottom. Why should we not have retired judges? Why should we not have people who worked in the Judiciary for all their careers? Why should they not be on a commission? Why should we not use their years of practical experience? Sometimes people might not be all that delighted with judges' decisions but we must respect their decisions and the methods for coming to their conclusions nevertheless. Over the years, I have had the privilege of knowing District Court judges who gave years of sterling service and had a wealth of practical common sense experience under their belts.

Those types of people would have an awful lot to offer when it comes to deciding on the very important decisions which need to be taken. Obviously I am not saying anything against lay people but it comes back to the point I was just getting at which was about political and judicial experience. If nothing else, who is a better driver, somebody who is doing 1,000 miles a month or somebody who is doing 10,000 miles a month? Is it not obvious that the more experience one has, the better one will be in the function or the role one is to perform?

The Minister is again getting it from many people here tonight that this is a time for reflection. He and his colleagues should really stand back and look at the proceedings which have gone on here and really think about what they are trying to do. We are not asking the Minister to collapse the Government. That would not be necessary. However, even at this late stage, there is time for the Minister to use his experience and to say that this is a nonsense. What the Minister and the Government are trying to do with this commission is actually nonsense. The Bill and the way it has proceeded in the last 48 hours has proven nothing more than farcical.

Hearing some of the contributions, it seems to me that the hastily scrabbled together deal certainly leaves an awful lot to be desired. I heard today from people around the country who were watching the proceedings, including some from the Minister's own party, and many of them did not realise a deal had been made. Indeed the former Ceann Comhairle announced here last night that he knew nothing of it and he is a paid up member of the Minister's party. He did not know anything about the deal that the Minister and his colleagues in Cabinet had made with Sinn Féin. Even he did not know about it. That is certainly treating members of the Minister's own parliamentary party with contempt in my opinion.

We live in a democratic society. If the Minister's parliamentary party is doing deals and cutting side deals to try to get to where it wants to go, surely to God it should have informed its own members rather than foisting it upon them in the way it did. Leaving Deputies such as Deputy Seán Barrett, who came in here last night having to say that he did not know what deal had been done because he had been out of the country on parliamentary business for a few days, in the lurch leaves an awful lot to be desired.

If the Minister was to do the proper thing by himself, by the Government and, most importantly of all, by the people he was elected to serve, he would weigh this whole situation up and decide what he has to gain and what he has to lose. The credibility of what the Government is trying to do, as opposed to the Minister's personal credibility, lies in tatters tonight because of the events that have unfolded. It is never to late to say we are wrong, we have made a mistake and we are going to pull this Bill. The Minister should remember that Fianna Fáil keeps the Government in its position. It is not happy at the moment. I do not see why the Government should consider sinking itself just to pacify the one person who wants to drive this forward.

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