Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

No, I am not. I am being deadly serious. The Minister of State knows all of this as well as I do. The issue of powerful people having such sway in the media has been a problem for some considerable time, not just today, inné nó an tseachtain seo caite. Tá sé ag fás le a lán blianta. It was happening long before the reality of online communications and emailing emerged, as Deputy Michael Collins mentioned, and I suspect it will continue for a long time after the Bill is passed. If the Director of Corporate Enforcement can be intimidated and threatened in this way, it is scandalous. I have said it countless times in the House that we have regulators, directors of enforcement and agencies, but they are all toothless, useless and fruitless. They are just being swept aside. They are very active when it comes to the little people and the ordinary small farmer or business person, but they can be bullied out of the way in other cases with the threat of legal people being wheeled in, court challenges and God knows what.

In recent months, we have seen how companies have captured and used personal data on a global scale. We have also seen how much of the blame for that has been shifted onto research companies like Cambridge Analytica, which was a disingenuous tactic. To mind the powerful, blame has been shifted around. It is a moveable feast. Once the main players are protected, they can get what they want.

Even the head of Facebook, Mr. Mark Zuckerberg, acknowledged when he was hauled before the US Congress in the past fortnight that there were major issues with how we protect our data online.

The House just swiftly debated a Bill with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross. I spoke on it a few weeks ago when we discussed criminal information being shared across the EU. That is important, but we were slow. It took the Minister eight months to get the Bill from there to here. It will now be sent back to the Seanad.

I was happy to read that the European Parliament has decided to invite Mr. Zuckerberg to appear before three of its parliamentary committees to answer questions on just how the data of as many as 2.7 million Europeans could have ended up in the hands of Cambridge Analytica. Deputies Michael Collins and Broughan referred to this matter. It is covered in section 2, Articles 13 and 14. Every other day, the Minister of State and I as public representatives and Teachtaí Dála - messengers of the people - receive replies from State institutions saying that they cannot discuss this matter or that with us. "Data protection" is a great excuse, so I am glad that the Government seems to be grappling with this issue now, given that what happens is often a shocking abdication of duty. The citizen is further sidelined, abandoned, punished and written out of the equation because of data protection. It suits institutions when they want to act as the heavy arm of the law coming down on ordinary people. We might only be talking about a mere request. This is the case among housing officers and in planning offices and everywhere else. We cannot ask any question or get any answer because of data protection. Senior officials are doing what they like and are accountable to no one, elected by no one, peer reviewed by no one and have jobs for life. Up along the ladder is where they want to go and to hell with the people. "We are all right, Jack."

I hope that the European Parliament will get some answers when Mr. Zuckerberg appears before it, but I wonder whether this Parliament and its committees will ever have the nerve to do something as bold as that. The amber sign is up to say that we should not go there because it is dangerous territory and we should not bring those people in here. We have agencies, such as the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission and so on, but they are useless. I do not particularly want to name any of their officials, but they are not effective. They do not have the necessary resources. We see that they are ineffectual everywhere. The Land Commission is long gone. We have had a conglomerate in Tipperary buying every perch of land that has come up for sale for the past ten years.

The previous and current Governments cosied up to them and let them off. They got rid of the small farmer. To hell or to Connacht. That is the way it has gone. I wonder if they would ever have the nerve to come in here and suspect not. That is because so much of what we say about robust enforcement and punishing things like white-collar crime or data protection breaches are just hot hair. Thankfully, the temperature has risen after the awful winter and spring. There is a lot of hot air in here, however, even when the temperature is -4° Celsius or -12°Celsius and any Members are blowing around.

We talk a lot about the importance of primacy and the importance of protecting data but then we allow and even encourage a culture where the balance of power is all one way. If the Minister of State was being honest, he would accept that. That is the way it is. I do not mean it as a reflection on the Minister of State. He is doing his best. Allow me to give one example. In recent years, I have been dealing with hundreds of cases of families in serious mortgage arrears. I am sure the Acting Chairman and many other Deputies, including the Minister of State, have as well. When I asked some of these asset companies to provide simple things like a contact email address, they would not do it. The wall is up and they will not do it. It is just arrogance. They demand all the personal data in the world from these families and individuals but then surround themselves in a veil of almost impenetrable secrecy when the families ask for similar information. It is all one-way traffic and it is disgraceful. The arrogance of them. Deputies Michael Collins, Michael Healy-Rae and I went into two banks six weeks ago and asked for meetings with the chief executives on behalf of people who need mercy and need to be treated with some modicum of respect. We barely got an acknowledgement from one bank when we asked for a meeting. They are too busy. Why would they meet us? They are waiting until July comes and the floodgates open for repossessions for the major banks, which we bailed out in this House. The Minister of State and I voted for it, to our eternal shame.

They demand more and more personal data and information from those people. They keep asking for stuff. It is just a game. They are traumatising people and imposing enormous expense with consultants, accountants and everybody else trying to help them out. Why is this allowed to happen? It is going on day in, day out as sure as night follows day. These families tell me when they ask for records of the number of times they have called or tried to make contact with the mortgage or asset management companies they get stonewalled. They are really just playing a big game with them and dangling them at the end of a string, like the game we used to play with the chestnut at the end of a piece of twine in a lake. That is what they are doing. They are just dropping families into it. We have seen many suicides and many people with mental health issues. We have seen families burst up and all kinds of stress and difficulties but no one has put manners on these people.

I note also the Bill seeks to introduce penalties for those giving false information online. This is an area that can cause horrific outcomes in terms of the grooming of children for sexual abuse. It is a very important area. I raised it with the Taoiseach yesterday but I might as well have been talking to Petticoat Loose as talk to the Taoiseach about a number of children from Clonmel and the surrounding areas with mental health issues who are in hospital there. They have serious self-harming issues and all the Taoiseach will say is he cannot comment on a personal issue. I am not asking him to do that; I want him to provide beds for these people. They are holding up beds in paediatric wards, which are not suitable for them. These are 13 year olds and 14 year olds. It is awful and we must investigate why all this is happening. There are no services, however, and we have no mental health beds in Tiobraid Árann, not even ceann amháin. It is all relevant to the Bill and what we are doing about data protection for children. We are aware of the grooming of children for sexual abuse. We are aware that such predators pretend to be someone they are not and lull the child or adolescent into a false sense of security, often with desperately tragic outcomes for those children such as suicide or self-harm. It is happening in their bedrooms and their kitchens. There is no shelter or hiding place. Email and Facebook can penetrate into their homes, their living rooms and their schools.

I welcome any move or provision within the Bill that will make it more difficult to engage in such absolutely contemptible behaviour. There should be severe sanctions imposed for that type of online activity. If they are caught, they should not be in a cosy prison where the victim is forgotten about. They are inside to serve their time and with good behaviour they are out and looked after. There must be effective penalties and remedies in order that they will not be inclined to do this again. The punishment must fit these heinous crimes. The destruction of a child or adolescent's physical and mental health is the most heinous crime. As far as I am concerned, it is as bad as murder because it destroys the young person, their family and siblings. Consider the trauma of those families when a mother must sit night and day at the hospital bed for nine weeks, as one woman from my parish did, waiting for a bed in Cork. The other siblings were at home with their father who was trying to work. It is awful. We let this racket go on.

I also note that the GDPR also deals with the digital age of consent for children and allows member states to legislate an age below which parental approval is required for offering information society services to a child. The Bill provides for a minimum age of 13 years. I raised this in the Dáil a few weeks ago. Most other countries in Europe, as far as I am aware, have raised it to 16. Who are we codding? I may not be right on the facts and figures but an awful lot of them have done so. Why are we putting our head into this cul-de-sac? We are putting our heads into a canvas sack and ignoring this. Any of us who have children know - I think the Minister of State has some - that 13 is way too young. It should be a minimum of 16. It will be reviewed after two or three years. In two or three years' time, hundreds of children may have been destroyed. We have to talk seriously. Why are we the first to jump up with Europe and follow Europe in most things, including the banking issues I spoke about and then, when it comes to issues like this, stubbornly resist raising the digital age of consent to 16? It is vital. If we raised it even to 14 and did it incrementally, it would be one thing, but to just blankly refuse to do it is mind-boggling to say the least. The damage is instant, continuous, despicable and ever-growing. These people are not afraid. I am calling for it. I do not want to wait two or three years for it because many other European countries have it. Many countries all over the world have it. Why are we so slow off the mark here? Who are we protecting? What are we doing? Surely to God the people we must protect, under the Constitution, are our children. Most of the House, although not the Minister of State, are pushing to bring in abortion to kill unborn babies. Surely to God, they can protect the children who are alive or have we gone that way? That is what we are dealing with.

The Minister of State will be aware the proposal to keep the digital age of consent at 13 has been severely criticised by experts in this area such as cyberpsychologist, Dr. Mary Aiken. We will not even listen to her. She is a woman of world renown. A Deputy mentioned the agencies that are in favour of this. I wonder what the vested interest of those agencies is. These are the quangos I am talking about. We will have more, including the Children's Rights Alliance and God knows what. I cannot understand why they would be opposed to this if they are protecting children. I cannot understand it. My knowledge of the area is limited but I am experienced. I have eight kids and four grandchildren and many nephews and nieces and God know what else. I meet constituents every day of the week. I have experience from the university of life. A young girl took her own life in Carrick-on-Suir only a few weeks ago. I believe her mother will feature on TV3 tonight. Those issues are horrific. Dr. Mary Aiken, who is a cyberpsychologist, at her recent briefing which I attended in the audiovisual room, went so far as to explicitly state that many of those advocating for children's rights in this State and who support the 13 year old threshold are woefully ill-informed and confused. Dr. Aiken said that in this very building, next door in the audiovisual room. We have to dig deeper into that. They are paid agencies. People are being paid and we have to ask questions about this. Why could Dr. Aiken's talent, experience and knowledge be dismissed and many of these so-called experts accepted as right? Dr. Aiken's criticism is not one that can be lightly dismissed.

We have to ask why. It is like with the HPV vaccine, which showed the might of the pharmaceuticals and their power to ride roughshod over legislation. One cannot criticise them. I ask the Government and Government agencies to attend a conference in Dublin next Saturday about what is going on all over the world in this area, to which we are blind. We are told by the CEO of the HSE that the parents of those sick children are emotional terrorists. He is now retiring on a gold-plated pension and the Minister, Deputy Harris, says he was right. That is outrageous behaviour.

Mar fhocal deiridh, it is my sincere hope that we can address these matters in the very near future. I acknowledge that the Bill before us has some worthwhile merits and I hope it will find some support. Big is not always wonderful. We need to shake off the cobwebs, look at what is going on and try to make some changes.

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