Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I wish the Minister the best in her new position. She will be a loss to her previous Department. We might have crossed swords many a time but, in fairness to her, she was helpful and she did her best. We could have a row, but she always came back and talked to the person. I am aware that in her new role she is involved with the credit unions. I would encourage her, as a person who knows them inside out and, I believe, who ran one successfully, to bring her counterparts and our Minister for Finance on board to make sure that credit unions have a future and are given more leeway. In light of the businesses we are talking about this evening, it is no good having money in one's account if one cannot get it out.

I am aware that strong auditing is needed but every week we come into this House we adopt some new European Union regulation. As a country, can we not have our own process, especially when it comes to taxes and auditing? The more we incorporate all these EU rules and regulations, the more we are probably heading for a different tax base. We need to hold on to our 12.5% rate but I am fearful that we are being undermined from the back by different rules and regulations. I know that through statutory instruments or whatever legislation is going through the Oireachtas now that the Minister is trying to blend things together, but every week we come in here to deal with some statutory instrument or EU regulation with which we have to be compatible. I believe in transparency, having proper due procedure and making sure that everything can be audited correctly.

I wonder, however, why we constantly adopt everything Europe throws at us.

The Minister talked about small and medium companies and then she talked about larger companies. No one is better placed than the Minister to know about the one worry I have, given where she is from. A lot of small businesses around the country kept the door open and the light on during the recession and they employ one or two people in local towns. They are ferociously important to their areas. I worry about more red tape, paperwork and regulation. It costs them money. The more powers are created, the more paperwork must be done. To be blunt, it costs more money. I fear for many of these companies, including small companies on the construction side. I am not criticising Irish Water, but I note that at one time smaller companies which did €50,000, €100,000 or €200,000 worth of work were able to tender for local authority contracts. We are told how great LAQuotes is, but the statistics tell us that it has reduced the number of people who are fit to tender. The smaller operator who might have two or three employees cannot withstand the amount of paperwork and forms they have to fill in to get through the LAQuotes or eTender process.

I had a debate about costs with a person from Irish Water the other day. One has to be realistic looking at the price of jobs now when the cost of a four inch pipe, for example, has increased massively in the past two or three years. That is because we have pushed out the tidy and efficient small companies and let a smaller number of larger operators come in. Basically, that means less competition. In business, small is beautiful. Small companies around the country are efficient and they give steady employment. They keep going. One will not hear of a big bang in those small companies compared to what happens when one large operation goes. I worry that with this legislation we are going down a road which puts more expense and paperwork on those companies. That is fine if one is Google or any of the larger operators. They have audit firms and tax experts who tell them how to do X, Y and Z. The smaller company paying €2,000 or €3,000 a year to get its books done cannot afford to have all these so-called experts. SMEs provide a good service to this country and employ massive numbers of people.

I do not doubt that we need a certain amount of regulation. That was touched on earlier. While we have seen over the past few weeks problems where a company in another country's construction sector has gone bust, we have also seen tenders for schools given out to companies here which did not have a great record ten or 12 years ago but were let back into the game again. Unfortunately, things may not have worked out. When we are looking at these things, do we not look at the track record? Should a book not be kept with a history of whether the subcontractors of those companies were paid? As was rightly pointed out earlier, when the big guy goes, it is the small subcontractor, or "subbie" as we call them, with a few workers who is stung. We do not seem to be tackling that. Some companies which have gone into receivership were planning for the future. Notwithstanding the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and other bodies which are supposed to watch over this, one finds at creditors' meetings that Revenue gets first call and everyone else has to sit on the fence and wait to see if there is any few bob left. Most times, nothing comes. We need to ensure that we scrutinise some of those companies that go into receivership because, unfortunately, it is the smaller operators who are getting caught.

I have stated my fear of rising expenses for smaller companies. When one looks at bigger operators, including the likes of the vulture funds which came into the country and pay €250 on however many millions in profit, they have been given breaks which have not been given to the smaller operator. Some of these companies, in particular the vulture funds, are out of control, but nothing is being done about them. I have an instance where a person is willing to provide the money he owes over the next year. They want expenses and high interest for the second part of it, which interest constitutes daylight robbery in my opinion, but they will not give an answer. At the same time, they have rung an auctioneer to sell the piece of ground. If that is not thuggery, nothing is. The client is willing to pay the expenses, which they are not sparing to be blunt. If it were me, I would stare at them a bit tougher, but some people are not in that position.

Vulture funds are in this country doing that to our own. If they are buying a lot of this stuff for 30% or 40% of value, they are going for 100% and interest. Even if one is going to give it to them, they will still try to put a person through the humiliation of telling an auctioneer to keep things going until the fund has made up its mind. That is deplorable and it is causing mental health problems, especially in the farming community, but nothing is being done. If one gets onto the Central Bank, one will get a lovely letter that such a one is regulated. Notwithstanding all of the regulations, these people get away with paying €250 tax. I acknowledge that some loopholes are being closed, but they will screw the Irish people over.

They want to make €3 from every €1 they put in. They take this approach even for the person who is willing to sit down with them and do a deal. The people doing that are putting in massive expenses for receivers and other things and still they will not give an answer. That is a matter of record. They will not give an answer; they will keep pondering it. They will keep telling the receiver to leave it and to tell the auctioneer to keep going to try to really humiliate the person concerned. That should not be allowed in any country. We are bringing in legislation on a different issue this evening because we are doing it for accountability and audits. How do we control people who are out of control?

I wish the Minister luck in her new position. I ask her to bring the matter to the Department of Finance. She understands it from her background with the credit unions and dealing with people and their money. We can give out about everyone in the world and everyone who took out loans. We can say they were struggling. We can give out about every builder in the world. At the end of the day, sooner or later, we have to face up to one reality. Whether it is this year or next year, we have to give our people a chance to get back on the road to being able to contribute to their country. If one is in between the devil and the deep blue sea, one is not achieving one's potential and one is not in a frame of mind to achieve it. The State needs to wake up to some of these things.

When she is replying, will the Minister clarify if what is proposed will cost SMEs? I am talking about small set-ups and the cost of audits? Will it cost them a lot more money? That is my concern. It is fine to bring in reams of legislation but I worry that SMEs may be placed in such a situation. When some people are doing audits, they have to have their accountants and the whole lot there with them. All of these things cost money. The Minister said settlement figures can be reached and that is great providing both parties are reasonable.

Provision is made for raising fines but I hope it will not just screw the small set-ups. I do not mind about the big set-ups. Many of them are well able to afford it. If there are one or two people working with someone in a small set-up, I can guarantee that they are paying a fair bit more than €250 tax in a given year. People who were attracted into the country and are turning over millions are able to get away with things that are intolerable as a result of loopholes. It has been exposed here by many Deputies. The ODCE needs to be well set-up with facilities and manpower in order that it might identify some of the stuff that is going on. I worry at times if there have been special purpose vehicles to copy what the Government did seven or eight years ago. Is that going on in order to facilitate people who are starting another chapter and leave subcontractors broke? The Government needs to consider companies tendering under eTenders, especially for school buildings, because there is a schedule and it needs to be done quickly. There should be some clause put in so that if subcontractors are not paid or are treated poorly, they can have some body or adjudicator to report it to, which would prevent bigger operators from getting the jobs. It would put manners on them for once in their lives. A lot of blackguarding is done by the larger companies against small subcontractors.

Will the Minister also comment on the EU regulations? Do we have to absorb everything? If they were our own, that would be grand, but why do we have to keep absorbing reams of paperwork out of Europe? Every place one goes now, they talk about all the stuff that comes from Europe that they have to comply with. With regard to tax harmonisation, is this a brick at the backdoor to sooner or later try to come in the front door? They will have all the pillars set up, including the 12.5%, and then they will say that Ireland has the same auditing as them.

Money for smaller companies around the country needs to be increased. Many SMEs are in trouble. They are small set-ups. They might be living over a shop or a pub, especially in rural parts, and they need some facility to address this. We can do whatever we want and say whatever we want about them but at the end of the day, they can employ people and that is what a country needs. They can turn over a new leaf in their book but they need a facility to do it. What is happening a lot is that once they get into any debt at all, they are blacklisted and cannot raise money elsewhere. I am talking about a sound financial system and that everything is gone through to make sure it is right. It is hard to take. Some of the SMEs might have a loan of €200,000 or €300,000, which was bought at 30% or 40%, and these so-called vultures are back after them for the 100%. They are finishing people in business and jobs. That is all I have to say on the matter. I thank the Minister.

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