Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent) | Oireachtas source

We are listening to those who are putting forward their issues. We have been listening in recent months. That is why we have met those I have mentioned. We know this issue needs to be addressed. It is a complex matter that needs careful thought and consideration if a solution is to be reached. Under section 39 of the Health Act 2004, the HSE funds organisations by means of a grant. The service level agreements that the HSE has in place with voluntary providers set out the level of service that is to be provided through those grants to individual organisations. The value of these grants can range from millions of euro to just a few thousand euro. I will put the scale of what is involved here into context. In 2016, the HSE provided over €874 million in grants to 2,240 organisations under section 39 of the Health Act 2004. The motion we are debating calls for FEMPI cuts to be reimbursed "as was expected". As employees of section 39 organisations are not public servants, however, they are not covered by public service stability agreements. This crucial point is accepted by people on all sides of the argument.

It is important to be aware that there are many organisations involved in the community and voluntary sector. We need to bear in mind the number of people involved. This goes beyond the health sector. In a response to a oral parliamentary question on this matter in December, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform estimated that as non-public servants, the number of staff working in these organisations could exceed 100,000. Approximately 300,000 people are working directly for the State. The State cannot afford to increase the number of public service workers by approximately one third, and it does not want to do so. The staff of these organisations were not subject to the FEMPI legislation which imposed pay reductions. Section 39 organisations are not obliged to pass on any pay reductions to their staff members, and nor are they obliged to provide for any pay restoration that may be negotiated as part of public service agreements.

It is a matter for each section 39 organisation, as the employer, to negotiate salaries with its staff as part of the employment relationship and within the overall funding available for the delivery of agreed services. All agencies had their budgets cut during the financial crisis and were expected to make savings. As a large part of the budget of each organisation is spent on pay, the pay budget was the logical place to start. It is understood that pay cuts were imposed on section 39 employees, but it is not clear how these cuts were applied. We have heard that different organisations did different things. There may have been increment freezes. All recruitment may have been stopped. The number of staff working in the agency may have been reduced over time. They needed to do more with less, and this is what they did. An exercise needs to be carried out to establish the true extent of the pay cuts that may have been applied. This gives rise to other questions. If the HSE funds just 70% of the budget of an organisation, such as a hospice, and it is found that the staff were subject to pay cuts, how is restoration to be applied? Should the HSE fund restoration to all staff in that organisation, but just to the value of 70% of the cut? Should it fund restoration of the full value of the cut to just 70% of staff? If an organisation receives a grant of just a few thousand euro from the HSE under section 39 of the 2004 Act, should the HSE be responsible for restoring pay cuts which the management of that organisation applied to staff?

It is clear that this complex issue needs to be carefully managed. It has been the subject of discussion between the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the Minister for Health and their officials for some time. I do not accept the claim in this motion of "passing the buck" or of "ongoing inertia" on the part of the Department or its officials. Along with my Independent Alliance colleagues, I have been raising this issue at Cabinet level. There is heightened urgency with regard to this issue because industrial action in a number of these organisations is threatened for 14 February. The Minister for Health and I are committed to doing all we can to ensure there is no disruption to the delivery of services. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has instructed the HSE to enter into a process of engagement with section 39 agencies in the health sector to establish the factual position regarding pay reductions and pay restoration. It is anticipated that this process will bring about the necessary clarity and transparency and will ultimately lead to an agreed way forward for all the parties involved. My Independent Alliance colleagues and I strongly support this move. We hope it will lead to a resolution and avoid the negative impacts of industrial action.

I have devoted my time as Minister of State with responsibility for people with disabilities to working on developing better services and increasing investment. I have had some success, given that almost €1.8 billion has been allocated for disability services in 2018, which is almost €92 million more than was available in 2017. The Independent Alliance got this over the line when the programme for Government was being drawn up. I am aware of how hard-fought it was to get this additional funding. The Independent Alliance is very strong on this issue. We want to ensure the staff on the ground receive part of this funding. I am happy that a process of engagement will be undertaken with the section 39 bodies. We cannot allow some sort of blanket restoration to all these agencies. It would not be right and it would not be proper. Taxpayers' money needs to be used in the best and most efficient way. We should not have it any other way. We need to proceed with caution. The Independent Alliance will do its best in the interests of the people who use these services. We have a plan and a vision for the disability sector. We want to invest in and reform these services. We want to ensure people with disabilities and ill people who are receiving services from section 39 organisations are at the centre of those services. That is why the Independent Alliance will be pushing very hard on this issue. I strongly commend and thank all those who work in these services. I want to ensure those staff want to work in these services, are well-paid and are looked after in the future.

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