Dáil debates

Tuesday, 5 December 2017

Public Service Pay and Pensions Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed)

 

9:00 pm

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all Deputies for their contributions on this important section. I will make a number of overall points about the Bill that are pertinent to the section being debated. The first point is broad.

The Bill looks to deliver wage restoration for the overwhelming majority of public and civil servants.

By the end of the lifetime of the agreement, 90% of State employees will have their wages restored to pre-crisis levels. All of the public service trade unions completed a ratification process in respect of the wage agreement and it was accepted by a large majority of those who voted, although not all the trade unions accepted it, as a number of Deputies pointed out. As a result of ratification, the agreement is being implemented in this legislation.

The amendment is exciting a great deal of interest because it addresses an understandable concern. However, it is worthwhile to put in context the overall importance of the Bill and the progress it will make in dealing with the restoration of wages, addressing the legal imperative facing us and trying to do so in an affordable and fair manner. As Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, I must consider that any move made in one part of the public and Civil Service results in immediate calls being made to have the measure in question extended to everyone else who works in the public service. I have shared a number of times with the House figures showing what the change in salary scales proposed to meet the definition of equality for those who are campaigning on this issue would mean for the teaching profession alone. The cost for education would be €70 million, while the cost of scaling out the increases to the entire public and Civil Service would be €200 million. To put the latter figure in context, it is higher than the cost of a 1% wage increase for every State employee.

The nub of the issue is that the changes made in salary scales gave the employer, namely, the Government, the ability to hire more public and civil servants and we have hired more teachers and front-line public servants in virtually every part of the public service. The changes in salary curves and to employees' position on the salary curve gave the State the ability to invest more in front-line services. Any change in the current position will have significant consequences for investments that we make elsewhere.

One of the particular aspects of my job is that while Deputies can make arguments on particular sectors or policy issues, I, as the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, must find a way to pay for everything. If I cannot do so, I must find ways of paying for nearly all or most of what the Oireachtas or citizens want. I have not been able to meet the demands placed on me by those campaigning for full pay restoration because of its cost and the consequences it would have for the entire civil and public service. In addition, I cannot provide for full pay restoration while meeting many of the other demands to improve wages for everyone. That goes to the heart of the challenge we face.

I appreciate and I am aware of the scale of feeling among those who are affected by this issue and on whose behalf the trade unions representing them have advocated. In recognition of this, we agreed a process to address this matter in the public service stability agreement. This process has begun and my officials have met representatives of the teaching unions in recent weeks to scope out the different issues involved and consider if or how progress can be made on this matter during the lifetime of the agreement. The Government is entering this process in good faith, as has been acknowledged by those with whom we are engaging. The costs and consequences of any change in this area are significant.

I reiterate that a process is under way with the teaching unions as part of the agreement ratified by the majority of public servants. I am obliged to complete this process with the trade unions to ascertain whether progress can be made on this matter. However, I cannot give a commitment to the House tonight that this will happen because a process is under way. We must await the outcome of the negotiations when we will learn what will be the costs, if these costs can be reconciled with the agreement we have and whether I can make a recommendation to the Cabinet and, ultimately, the Oireachtas about what to do. At this point, the process has only begun and it will take time to complete. When it is complete we will review the position and decide whether the Government can respond on the issue. Everything I say must be considered in the context that a process is under way and I can make a recommendation as to whether any change can be made only at the end of that process.

Given that Deputy Dara Calleary's amendment refers to costs and a plan without obliging me to state I am in a position to implement pay restoration, I will accept it. If there is a process under way on this matter with the trade unions, it is appropriate that at some point in the discussions, I should outline more fully to the Oireachtas what are the consequences of dealing with this matter and what issues will arise as we embark on the process to which I have committed in the public service stability agreement. I accept the amendment on the basis of the range of opinions articulated by Deputies. In doing so, I emphasise that this does not prejudice my ability, acting as a Minister on behalf of the Exchequer, to reach an agreement, if any. At this point, given the costs and consequences that arise in respect of this issue, I cannot say whether that will happen. If I were able to do so, we would not have a process in the first place. We are engaging in the process for these reasons. Given the interest in the matter, I will be pleased to report to the Oireachtas, perhaps through the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, where we stand and the broader costs and consequences involved in dealing with this matter.

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