Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Healy for tabling the motion. I know it is genuine and that most people's comments in this debate and in the debates on housing and homelessness we have had here have been pretty much genuine. I understand that. We might not agree with all parts of the motion but most people want to see the housing situation sorted for social and private housing because it affects many of us. I thank Members for their interest in that as well and for the chance to go through some of the topics raised here tonight.

As Deputy Healy highlighted in his introductory comments, we are experiencing an unprecedented housing crisis that is impacting on many households and many types of households across the country. They include those facing rising rents beyond their means; families who are finding it difficult to repay their mortgages and who are at risk of losing their homes; first-time buyers who are priced out of the market because of the lack of supply, particularly in the starter home bracket; individuals driven to rough sleeping; and families in hotels and hubs, which are not suitable for anybody. It is not just social housing. As Deputy MacSharry said earlier, it also affects investment and job creation and we understand that. Companies that I used to deal with many years ago in my previous ministerial role are coming forward to say that it is difficult to invest and plan ahead for more employees when they are concerned that there might not be houses to house them in years to come. It has certainly become a big issue.

Part of the work of the Department is to sit down with people to show what is going to happen in the years ahead and to show the progress and the trends that we believe will help solve the housing crisis. We all know we cannot solve it in one week, two months or three months but over the next couple of years, we will solve the housing crisis and emergency. We are having an impact. The trends are there. When one sits down and analyses the data, not spin or rhetoric but facts, one will see that there is progress in housing supply and social housing delivery. It is not enough by any means but people need to acknowledge that it is far better than it was two years ago in terms of the supply of housing and movement when it comes to sites and social housing provision. I know it is not enough to deal with the housing crisis or homelessness issue. I am not saying it is but I would say to people who come in here week after week and accuse the Minister and I along with others of rhetoric and spin that this is not what we are about. We are being very straight about this and have been from the start in terms of dealing with homelessness figures, admitting what they are and putting through various actions and plans to deal with them. We put the figures out week in, week out and month in, month out for people to track and see what is happening. That is not spin. Facts are not spin.

I must question whether some of the rhetoric here is spin because it does not deal with the facts. Even Deputy Mattie McGrath came in here again tonight and said we are not listening, yet when I try to correct what he says every week, he does not want to listen to it, so it works both ways. I have no problem admitting there is a major housing crisis and saying the Government is finding it difficult to solve it but I will not be told week in, week out that we are doing nothing about it or nothing has changed because that is not true. If we are going to genuinely approach this issue, let us approach it in a logical manner and deal with the facts.

The Deputy from Galway spoke about HAP being a failure and argued that it is not a good scheme. That is not true either because thousands of people availing of the HAP scheme find it a great scheme because it solves their housing problems. They know it is not a permanent solution. We all know that. It is a temporary solution, in some cases, for three, four or five years while in other cases, it solves the problem for a year or two, but HAP is helping thousands of people. Next year, another 17,000 people will be helped through the HAP scheme. The HAP scheme is a reformed rent assistance scheme that had been there for many years. Thousands of people used it and people came in here and said it was a great scheme.

There is one fundamental problem with that scheme that I disliked and discussed with Deputy Burton many years ago when she was Minister. A person could not go back to work if they were on the rent allowance scheme. As soon as a person went back to work or increased their income, bang, their rent support was gone. That is not the situation with HAP and that is why most people, or certainly people who claim they are on the left, should welcome it because it is a housing assistance payment that does not drop off if a person gets a job or increases his or her employment. It is a very useful scheme. It is not one that we will rely on forever but we recognise that while we are trying to increase the number of social houses, we need to rely on private schemes in some cases. That is what HAP is for. It recognises that there are not enough houses in the social housing stock for everyone who needs a house so, yes, we have to rent houses in the short term.

When we implement this plan, we will have increased the housing stock by over one third and will be in a position to be able to offer people a more permanent housing solution as opposed to just a HAP house. People should not keep saying it is not working. Yes, there are individual cases where it does not solve individual problems but for thousands upon thousands, it is working and they are very happy with it. If one asked them to move tomorrow, they would not move so let us just deal with some facts here rather than the spin from the other side.

It is said here week after week that this Government does not believe in social housing and that Fine Gael is against social housing. That is untrue. Before we came into office, a decision was made here to restrict the number of social houses being directly built by local authorities, to wind down capacity and to pull the funding. The Fine Gael-Labour Party Government made changes to that and the following Fine Gael Government supported by Fianna Fáil has followed through and is making changes to put local authorities back into the business of driving the provision of social housing. Of the 33,000 plus houses that will be built directly as opposed to leased under Rebuilding Ireland, local authorities are driving the majority of that and are central to that. They are in charge of social housing and rightly so and most of the €6 billion we spend on housing has been spent by them. Again, factually, it is wrong to say we are doing nothing or we are against social housing. It is just not true because the money is there. The figure of €1.9 billion on housing this year is the largest housing budget ever in this State. It is factually untrue to say that as a Fine Gael-led Government, we are against social housing. It is just not true because the figures speak for themselves. We are investing where we can. Yes, it does not solve the problem today but it will solve it over the months and years ahead if we continue with that investment and that is what we are doing.

We are also repeatedly told that we are not providing enough social houses and yet everyone quotes the housing committee formed early last year, which suggested that the Government should deliver 10,000 social houses per year and 50,000 in total over five years. Everyone says that is the figure it should achieve and yet nobody realises that this is exactly what we are doing in Rebuilding Ireland. It is the exact same figure. Our commitment is 50,000 social housing units outside of HAP over the next five years. That is what we are doing so we are actually matching the committee that all the Members praise. Again, the facts do not add up here. I ask people that when they come in to this Chamber week in, week out to let us look at the facts. I accept hand over heart that it is not enough to solve the problem but we are doing more. We are putting more money in and we will try more schemes because we want to solve this.

Nobody is happy with the homeless situation. Deputies quoted the figures from the times we are in but if we look back over the homeless figures for even the good times such as 2006, nearly 4,000 individuals were homeless. It is different now because we now have families that are homeless who were not homeless ten or 15 years ago. We really must concentrate on that aspect and it is where we are putting most of our resources. It is why we are opening family hubs to recognise that there are now families that are homeless, including thousands of children. The family hubs are a better form of emergency housing. They are not permanent and are not meant to be permanent. In some cases, they are for three or four months while in other cases, they are for six or seven months as people transition from an emergency situation in a bed and breakfast accommodation, hotel or even the street into a hub and then on to a house. They are working quite well. Again, if one speaks with people in the family hubs, they will tell one that they are a lot better than what they had before that. They know it is not the end solution and we know that too. We must get them a house and we will. Deal with the facts and talk to those who are living in these situations.

Other issues were raised - I have probably gone off my main speech - such as the repair and leasing scheme, which I believe is a great scheme. We provided the money for it but it will not reach its target because it is being under-utilised. We offered the scheme but it is demand-led. The public needs to say "Yes" to it. It is privately driven.

We have repeatedly asked councillors, political parties and local authorities to support the scheme and push it out there, yet the number of applications around the country is only about 600. It is wrong to say it is not available for rural areas or small towns and villages because it absolutely is. It is available not only in high-pressure areas for social housing but also where there is a demand or need for any social housing. It does not matter what town it is. It could be in Kenmare, which is close to where Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is from, if there is a need for a social house there. That scheme solves two problems. It gets people a social house and it helps repair dereliction and the decline of villages and towns. It will do so over many years, not just over five years but probably 50 years. It is a good scheme and it is there for that reason.

On the issue of zoning of land, Deputy Healy-Rae raised the point about Kerry. I said it last week and I will say it again, that in most cities, towns and villages we zone 50% above what we believe is needed to allow for a situation in which not every site is brought forward. We can do that more if a councillor comes to us with evidence to prove more land is required to be zoned. That is part of my remit in the Department. We apply common sense and we will do that if it is required. In most cases and in many of our counties there is sufficient land zoned to deliver housing. We need to activate it and make it possible. Numerous schemes in Rebuilding Ireland are about activating these sites and providing the money for the infrastructure to open up the sites. There are many different schemes. We brought forward a fund to finance small builders who cannot get access to funding. People talk about it here as if there is a grant. It is not a grant. It is a loan on a commercial basis which will be repaid. It is utilising finances in a clever way to activate housing. Any money we spend on infrastructure to open up sites will be reflected in the price of the house that is sold back.

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