Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017. I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, on her elevation. I have no doubt but that she will be ambitious in the role. I think she will do a good job. She is out of the traps quickly and at least ahead of her predecessor: there seems to be a far more sensible and realistic adoption of issues raised by the Opposition and I am glad to see she has already incorporated some of them into the Bill. That is the way to make progress. There is no use being antagonistic and setting up false rows at the beginning. I will point out a couple of these issues to the Minister. Many of the provisions in the Bill are effectively designed to tidy up other provisions, to streamline matters and to deal with some anomalies that have arisen in the social welfare code. For the most part, we all welcome these provisions. Where there are issues outstanding, we will address and debate them in a civilised way.

Section 3 is a change that carries with it much import. Payments to guardians in respect of orphans clearly should not have affected guardianship rights, specifically the right of a guardian to claim social welfare payments in respect of the child in his or her own right. This should never have been included or even contemplated for inclusion in the legislation. Of course, this mirrors what happens in the taxation code regarding child benefit, which is where this anomaly was first addressed. The social welfare code is therefore belatedly catching up with the taxation code in respect of child benefit, which is specifically for the child and should not be considered as the income of any of the parents involved.

I have already indicated my dislike and displeasure - even in person to the Minister - of the measure contained in section 4. As someone who practises in the courts and who often defends people in this area, I know it is a big ordeal to be prosecuted and brought to court, particularly for those who often may not have a third-level or even a second-level education. It is difficult and a fairly traumatic experience. Very often one makes the plea ad misericordiamon behalf of these people. Quite frequently, a case appears in local news media, including newspapers, and the whole neighbourhood knows. Very often, these people may have young children under the age of nine or ten and this affects them at school or wherever else. If a taxpayer defaults, he or she is an adult and can take it on the chin: he or she does the crime and so must obey the rules and pay up the interest and penalties. Then if his or her name appears in public as a tax defaulter, the person is an adult. However, this measure would affect young children who may be at school. Willie Penrose may meet a child and tell him or her that he saw his or her daddy's or mammy's name in the newspaper, and this affects people. There is nothing more to be gained in this regard; the punishment has already been levied and the case has been advertised.

The good thing about this is that, after a week or so, the case disappears or it goes on and something else takes over. I do not use Facebook or any of that social media stuff. I do not believe in it and have no time for it all because the way people are going, they are trying to eliminate the postal service. People send emails and all that. No one knows how to write a letter nowadays. Everything I send goes out in written form and in the post. I do not just come in here and speak balderdash about supporting people in the postal service or post offices; I actually act. Everything I send goes out by letter. That is how we save the post offices. I know about this so I am very eager that the post offices be saved. Anyway, the Minister knows my view on section 4. If one is a tax defaulter, the sum the Revenue Commissioners accept must be over €33,000 under the Taxes Consolidation Act before one's name is published. Why should a person in receipt of social welfare be treated any differently? To hell's blazes, the Minister will do another good deed if she takes section 4 out. People are already being punished, and rightly so. Anyone who commits fraud deserves the punishment he or she gets, but the courts are already dealing with them. The courts are a public forum and there are no in camerasittings for these types of cases. The public knows, and that is the end of the matter. I understand that old faddish ideas come into people's heads and that individuals like to come forward with innovative ideas. People would see that those ideas are as mad as be damned if they would only examine them closely.

I agree with my colleagues that there are data protection issues and I am of the view that these must be addressed. I do not deal with much of that stuff but I do not think those issues have been addressed or adverted to. The Data Protection Commissioner may well have something to say about them. However, I stay away from that type of thing because I have no interest in it. I am the last of the Luddites, I suppose.

Head 5, which the Minister's predecessors tried to introduce, sought to provide the Minister with the power to punish someone convicted of social welfare fraud in our courts - an additional punishment. Mother of the Divine Institutions, it has not been possible to do that since the Conroy case and that was heard nearly before most of us were born. No Minister has the power to do that. Deputy O'Dea, who is a former Minister, will remember the East Donegal Co-operative case. He had to study it as part of his law degree course. It curtails the power of the Executive. The Minister cannot do anything in this regard; only the courts are empowered to judge citizens. The powers the Minister was seeking were arbitrary and not properly defined. There is already a procedure in place to recover payments as a result of fraud over a period. Then the Minister was going to assess the gravity of offences in individual cases along with other relevant factors - Mother Divine - and impose a punishment afterwards. At least the Minister is an intelligent person and got rid of this.

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