Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am glad to have the opportunity to participate in this debate on an important aspect of local government. I commend and thank Deputy Cassells for bringing forward the Bill. It takes a lot of time to get a Bill together and get one's colleagues and the rest of us to support it. This is a worthwhile discussion. It is one I have had around the country with councillors over the past year in my job in this Department. I have had interesting conversations with many councillors who work almost full time in their role and have been doing that for many years. Their views are mixed. Many would say they are happy that the municipal areas are beginning to work. There were teething problems at the start but they believe they can work. In many areas they are too large. We made a commitment a long time ago to consider reducing those areas. What Deputy Cassells is saying tonight is not very different from what some councillors say. Most agree that some change is required. I look forward to having that discussion with the Members opposite over the months ahead as we bring forward the report summarising the thoughts and views of councillors. We will make the changes.

We differ on tonight's Bill not just on principle but also timing, which I think Deputy Cassells understands. The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, said earlier that it could delay our work as well. We will have some common sense when it comes to working on the issue.

Some people mentioned people coming together in a voluntary capacity on Clonakilty Town Council and other areas, where there are business fora and other fora. Most people in this House started their political careers as councillors when the work was voluntary. That proves they were dedicated to public service. When Deputy Cassells and I were elected on the same day it was not a paid job. Today there are expenses which cover some costs but it is not a fully paid job. Very often the discussion of councillors' pay is driven by the media and is not fair because it does not reflect the cost of doing the job. That is something we should stand up to but it is being addressed in changes we will make to councillors' expenses and pay, hopefully in July of this year, to recognise the greater workload they have. We should all get behind that.

When introducing the Bill, Deputy Cassells indicated that the main reason for proposing the legislation for the restoration of town councils was to address perceived neglect and lack of focus on town centres since their dissolution. He also raised issues such as the fact that towns are now part of much larger local electoral areas and have lost power to develop facilities such as arts centres, parks and enhanced urban spaces. He referred to some areas in Navan that we worked on together over the years where some great projects were brought forward by a combination in some cases of town and county councils. I accept, however, they were led by the town councils.

I fully appreciate Deputy Cassells's intentions in raising these issues and would go further by accepting that his point about the size of the local electoral areas seems to have much validity. The Programme for a Partnership Government requires to be addressed. It is fundamentally important for its effect on local government and democratic representation. We did agree, and it was part of the talks this time last year, from May or June 2016, around the formation of Government. Deputy Mattie McGrath touched on that earlier but then he decided not to be part of that Government. He remembers all the discussions he had about issues he wanted raised but he was not prepared to back them up and come into government to make them happen. Most people around that table are concerned and did have issues related to changes in local government, the need for reform and so on. This Department recognises that and is willing to make changes when the need is proven and factually driven. That is the discussion we can have on foot of tonight's debate because we will not have time in these two hours to put all those facts on the table. We can certainly have that conversation as we tease this out and see how best to make the changes and the reforms as well.

I do not necessarily agree that bringing back town councils is the best way to do that but I am certainly willing to have that discussion, to analyse the facts and the evidence gathered, along with all the different surveys of councillors who have given their views as well. A report was cited earlier which represented a couple of hundred councillors and which would be little different from ours and the feedback we are getting more formally. We can put that information together and analyse it to see how best to deal with it.

Concerns raised by Deputy Cassells and others who advocated the return of town councils are not supported by available evidence. For example, the overall development capacity of local government across each county has been much strengthened by the integration of local structures and resources. We have evidence to prove that. There is peer evidence that many towns have benefited from direct access to the overall resources of the county councils. Various programmes of investment in the development and enhancement of towns have been implemented since the 2014 re-organisation. We want to be clear that when the former Minister, Phil Hogan, made those changes and the Cabinet backed and agreed with him - it was a coalition Government - it was in part to save money and reduce the cost of local government but it was also a genuine attempt to bring more efficiency to local government. I served on area councils at one time. I was not on a town council. Deputy Cassells was on both at different stages as well. There was often duplication and delays in decision making. I would go so far as to say that sometimes officials played us off against one another. It suited them to delay decisions. There was a genuine attempt to fast-track decision making in some areas on behalf of towns but not in every area. Some worked quite well but there was duplication, delays and inefficiency that had to be addressed.

Clear evidence of the progress made by local authorities has been compiled by the Local Government Management Agency. An outstanding example is in our own town, Navan, which Deputy Cassells mentioned. Meath County Council, in conjunction with the National Transport Authority, NTA, has launched the Navan town scheme, Navan 2030. This follows extensive consultation with local stakeholders. This scheme involving investment in the order of €12 million, will revitalise and rejuvenate Navan town centre making Navan a better place to live, work and visit, along with many other schemes.

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