Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour) | Oireachtas source

This is the third time in fairly recent times that we have had an opportunity to debate this issue. It is welcome that we are moving forward and that progress is being made. I welcome the Minister's speech today and the number of measures she has told us she is taking.

I, too, pay tribute to Catherine Corless and others in the Visitors Gallery who have been directly involved. It is particularly welcome that the Minister has said she has been to Tuam on a number of occasions and has met many of those who were born there or were former residents. The last time I spoke on this, I felt there was a need for that direct discussion to take place. The Minister had referred to the expertise of historians, etc., but talking to the people most directly involved was the most important thing to do in determining what the next step should be. I welcome that.

It is also welcome that there is a forensic archaeologist - I believe her name is Ms McCullagh - working specifically on the site in Tuam. From the information we have, we know the commission found that human remains were visible in 17 of the 20 chambers and that they dated from a period that coincided with when the home was in operation, between 1925 and 1961. We know a certain amount of information but we obviously do not know all the details on what exactly happened in Tuam.

The Minister said the initial report, on the analysis of the site, would be issued at the end of June and that the full report would be available in the autumn. I certainly hope she will share with us the information when it becomes available.

The question of what should happen next has to be discussed with those who are directly affected. Obviously, it is a matter for historians, archivists, etc., but it must primarily be about the feelings of those whose lives were touched, or perhaps destroyed, as a result of what happened in Tuam and other places. I support what Deputy Louise O'Reilly just said about expanding the scope. I acknowledge that the Minister is going to carry out a scoping exercise on broadening the terms of reference but I understand that, when the interim report was published, the intention was not to broaden the scope to cover other institutions. We have all heard from people who were in institutions that are not on the particular lists. I hope the question of extending the scope to include other institutions will remain open. I acknowledge that, within the terms of reference, there is a possibility for follow-through where an individual was transferred to a mother and baby home or went somewhere else after coming out of a mother and baby home. I would prefer to see a more comprehensive investigation. As the Minister said very eloquently at the start, we want to ensure that what we do regarding the awful, shameful occurrences in the past will be a turning point. If we leave some matters out, there will have been an omission in that regard. I ask that this be taken into account.

With regard to what happened to babies, vaccine trials, the sending of children to America and illegal adoptions, on which matters the Minister touched, all these areas need to be examined. On the last occasion, I talked about the grey walls that surrounded the institutions so people outside did not have to concern themselves with what was inside. Society washed its hands and put young mothers or young pregnant women into the hands of what were very harsh and destructive institutions. As Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire just said, children died of malnutrition. Children were clearly not treated properly in the way children outside the walls of the institutions were treated. We have to ensure that we examine everything and that all the details are in the public arena so we can deal with them and build for the future without having dark secrets that have not been revealed.

I recently read a report by somebody who was doing some excavation on sites in other parts of the country. They uncovered underground pathways with little air grills at the top. They were actually so the pregnant women could go from one part of the site to another without being seen by others. This is because they were considered to be lesser human beings and unclean in some way. We had the churching of women until relatively recently. This was about making women pure again after having babies. This is the kind of historic background we are talking about. We are talking about an attitude and culture in which the women and their babies were treated as being beyond humanity. We do need to uncover everything that needs to be uncovered in this whole area. Only by doing so will we build a positive future.

Let me touch on a couple of other areas. With regard to access to information, the Minister said Tusla has been brought on board. Some of the women who are campaigning have sought the full disclosure of documents. There may well be criminal proceedings in court. Those concerned need access to all the data, including from the HSE and Tusla, and also the commission. There is a sense that full disclosure of all documents may be difficult. I ask that the Minister facilitate that in every way. It is quite possible that there will be criminal cases after this.

The Minister has said Dr. James Gallen from the school of law and government in Dublin City University is assisting her with regard to a possible model of transitional justice. I particularly welcome the fact that she is asking her Government colleagues to support her in inviting to Ireland the UN Special Rapporteur on the promotion of truth, justice, reparation and guarantees of non-recurrence, Mr. Pablo de Greiff. The guarantee of non-recurrence is an important element in the gentleman's title.

Apparently, he has a great deal of experience in other countries on these issues.

As the Minister said at the start, we need to get this right. That is one of the reasons we are having a third debate in this Chamber as representatives of the people. It is important that we are having this ongoing interaction, because clearly some of the points that were made by some of us in the Chamber have been taken on board by the Minister. The Minister has directly engaged with the people who are most important in all of this and has obviously been to Tuam. Again, there are other places besides Tuam that also need to be inclusively involved in all of this process. I believe we are all generally agreed on what we need to do. There will certainly be no division in terms of the approach to this issue. We have had debates before on the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse and others such as on the Magdalen laundries. This is yet another chapter in our relatively recent past that is now being uncovered. We have to uncover it all in order that we can build firm foundations for the children of the future.

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