Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

We welcome this opportunity to debate again what is a very important issue. I thank Deputy Connolly - despite her comments - for bringing this issue forward. It is welcome and needed. As the Minister said, it is being kept on the agenda by various Deputies. He is right that Deputy Clare Daly introduced a Bill and we had a useful debate then. Representatives of Caranua will appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills, which is chaired by Deputy O'Loughlin, to discuss the review. The issue is being addressed. I hope representatives of Caranua are listening to the dissatisfaction expressed here. Notwithstanding that we could not sign up to the Deputies' motion in its entirety, our amendment acknowledges there is dissatisfaction and calls on Caranua to address that and to deal with people fairly, expeditiously and efficiently. Clearly, that has not been happening in a large number of cases.

There are very serious issues, some of which are detailed in the text of the motion and have been outlined by speakers. In a debate such as this, it is important to stand by facts. Deputy Pringle's reference to money going to the national children's hospital is not helpful to the debate. As he said himself, it is not something he cannot back up. Sometimes in these debates there is a rush in to slag everybody off because it is seen as the right thing to do politically.

There is a recognition across the House that there is immense dissatisfaction with Caranua. We are all getting that from people dealing with that agency. As I think nearly every speaker has acknowledged and remembered, these are not simply "customers" as described by Caranua; these are victims of serious abuse. The system, the State and the church have failed them dramatically, devastatingly and disastrously over many years. This is part of the response of the State - mainly - and the church to compensating people and to making right a wrong, which I do not think could ever really be possible. Sometimes that is not the perception Caranua gives when dealing with people. It is not the perception even when it is dealing with Oireachtas Members, as we often do with State bodies. We do not get the perception from it that this is a different or a special type of organisation.

The Independents 4 Change motion mentions getting free office space from the Office of Public Works, OPW.

I understand the intent behind that, which is obviously to preserve the fund for the residents, but there is no doubt that any fund of this type should be considered a project for a period to do a particular job given to it by the Oireachtas. There will be administrative costs. It is inevitable that there will be some administration. I assume everybody accepts that is the case. It is a question of, first, minimising those costs and, second, trying to make sure that the money is spent as expeditiously as possible.

We are prepared to wait a little longer for the review. We want to see it happen on schedule. A number of items concerning the Department of Education and Skills have not happened on schedule but this must happen because we are dealing with victims and we must keep repeating that. We are prepared to do that and to meet Caranua at the Joint Committee on Education and Skills. Anyone can attend the committee; it is not just for the members. We will examine the review when it comes before the committee and ensure that the recommendations of the Oireachtas are implemented and there is some scrutiny by the Department in that regard. We are prepared to wait for July. Our countermotion calls on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills to scrutinise the recommendations and engage with stakeholders including survivors. Deputy Fiona O'Loughlin can speak for herself but she has put that on the agenda of the committee recently and arrangements are being made in that regard. Our countermotion calls on Caranua to address the operational failures that have been identified in some of its service provision and administration. We make an explicit commitment to facilitating the passage of any legislative changes that are required to implement changes to eligibility or Caranua functions that are recommended by the review and approved by the stakeholders.

We want to be as constructive as possible in recognition of the suffering that has been caused. The assumption is that, generally speaking, the people who work in State bodies want to do a good job and look after the citizens of the country. A law should be introduced to ban the word "customer" from State bodies, local authorities and other such bodies. The assumption is that when people are dealing with citizens that they will try to do a good job. If they fail in that it is up to us to hold them to account. That is what this motion should be about and that is what we should be doing while, first and foremost, remembering the victims and keeping their needs as the highest priority.

I am sure the people in Caranua are listening to this debate. They need to redouble their efforts to make sure the money is spent on the victims and to bring this project to an end when the money is spent. As a secondary matter, Caranua must redouble its efforts when dealing with Members of the Oireachtas who may be representing victims who might not be in a position to represent themselves fully or ably due to their circumstances or for whatever reason. Members of the Oireachtas are entitled to do that. Our countermotion is not proposed out of any major disagreement with Independents 4 Change: we just felt that some of the emphasis in the motion was not supportable but we certainly welcome the opportunity to have the debate.

See this speech in context