Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I have no truck or issue with the Deputy on Tesco and big companies of that sort. I have no time for them and what they do. I am talking about small employers and the fledgling employers Enterprise Ireland supports to help the economy recover. Unions have a vital role to play but membership should not be compulsory. I would want very clear guarantees that the rights of non-union members will not be impinged upon by any new legal entitlements which give union representatives access to the workplace. People have a right to join a union or not. We cannot make that compulsory. What if the workplace has to close? What about the deduction of pay for non-union members in those circumstances? Unfortunately, many have closed and will close because of Brexit and other reasons and issues which have not been dealt with by successive Governments. They are not all Tesco or big multinationals. There are serious problems in the way workers are being treated. If a company has to close what will happen to non-union members?

It is already extremely difficult to set up and operate a small business in this State. There are significant and costly levels of red tape and regulations to be adhered to. Deputies have no idea of the amount red tape and regulation. Will there be another plethora of red tape? We have all had the experience of over-zealous union members interfering with work practices. That is not good and the unions would not want that. It has happened and I have experience of it. I have no experience as an employer but I am involved, as I am sure many Members are, in community and voluntary organisations and I am chairman of a community employment scheme which employs 17 or 18 people. I have some understanding of work regulations and workers' rights and health and safety. It is very arduous and people will not be interested in being involved in community development associations and social benefit schemes because of the threat of legislation. We deal with the unions and have a good relationship with them. Will we have union representatives on the scheme who will demand time be given to meetings with the volunteer board members who have to give up time from their own employment? It is not feasible. We should not be introducing further legislation which makes it even more difficult to run a business in a smooth and efficient manner.

I respect and support Deputy Cullinane's motivation to protect the rights of workers from exploitative practices but it goes way too far and I could not support the Bill. There is a parallel in the denial of access to those willing to assist lay litigants in courts. That is a shameful thing that I have protested against. I have been with some lay litigants who are not allowed in either. There are many areas where people are denied support.

People and families are under continual threat of exploitation by judgments of county registrars and yet they are forbidden to have access to people who may advocate on their behalf but who are not in the legal profession. I heard the King's Inns or one of those organisations advertising for people to become barristers from their homes. That is badly needed but lay litigants need to be able to get help and support from friends or people who can assist them.

The worker needs to be protected in the workplace but so does the employer. It is not beyond our comprehension to accept the fact that employees can utilise union representatives to make vexatious and frivolous claims. Most employees would not do that but it has happened. There must be safeguards in place for both parties.

There is a plethora of bodies responsible for health and safety, etc. The Deputy invokes the Attorney General in the Bill. The National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, was very antagonistic to employers. It had far too much power and a plethora of officials in the good times. Those officials could arrive at any premises and argue about the time the employees worked, whether before or after midnight, and about the age of the employees, etc. I said countless times in the middle of the recession that NERA should be stood down and its name changed to one which signified that it was an employers' support agency. We respect the workers but employers need support. Who is going to help them? Who will fill out their P45 tax certificates and pay their taxes? What pensions do they get? They have rights too.

If we want our economy to grow, we need entrepreneurs and young people in business to employ people and go out to work. We cannot have parties of the left continuously frightening off employers and foreign direct investment. That is what is happening. Some of those who have left the Chamber – not members of Sinn Féin – were lecturing employers as much as to say that we do not have a right to help on the picket. We need balance. We need to encourage employers and we need employer supports. It is not all one-way traffic and it is a difficult and thankless job often to have one, five, ten or 12 employees and to keep the doors open, particularly when rates, income tax, wages, insurance and pension schemes must be dealt with. There are more and more regulations and inspectors, flashing badges and books but none of them could run a henhouse. They could not run a corner shop or a sweet shop. That is what is wrong.

Some aspects of this legislation are badly thought out and come from a totally different ideology that has no place in modern employment. I certainly cannot support this Bill.

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