Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

Deputy O'Callaghan is lean. He is not mean but lean and clean. I am sure they are rubbing their hands with glee and saying "Here we go again". They are not going to be on the dole queue for a long time but will be down in the Four Courts making hay while the sun shines. This is too serious. There are timescales in place and that is very important but we cannot get bogged down in legal argument and challenges.

There are many other whistleblowers out there who will be encouraged by this to come out. What will happen then? Where is the limit? The Minister is including the most recent one of Garda Keith Harrison but if there are others who are encouraged to come out, where are we going to go? The Minister has said we must get to the truth and that is certainly the case. She said the terms of reference will establish a public tribunal of inquiry to get to the truth. That is in the interests of whistleblowers and gardaí, in particular those against whom allegations have been made, and it is in the public interest. We all know that. The truth is vital. However, are we going to get full co-operation? I hope we are. The judge will have full powers of compellability, but if findings are made against certain people, there will be no powers of prosecution. We will see some people rubbing their hands again. Their hands will be worn with the amount of rubbing because this will be going on and on with no definite action.

What the people want and what we are entrusted to do is to root out the systemic rot in An Garda Síochána and Tusla. I have the greatest of respect for An Garda Síochána and its many good members, of all ranks, up and down the country and the work they have done and continue to do. Bad apples must be rooted out completely.

I will not refer to the Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan remaining in place, but I was disappointed with the appointment process. We support people from abroad but appointed someone from within. We have to go outside the country. There needs to be a clean sweep and we must appoint someone who has had no involvement in Ireland if the current Commissioner is forced out of office or whenever the position becomes vacant.

A criminal prosecution should happen side-by-side with the tribunal, otherwise the tribunal will be a smokescreen. Major allegations have been made and people's lives have been destroyed. It is not acceptable.

In 2006 the Comptroller and Auditor General's report made recommendations on the costs of tribunals. It recognised that due to their investigatory nature the cost was difficult to estimate. It also stated that, nonetheless, good financial management demands that a mechanism be established to make the costs more predictable and transparent, which has not happened. The report went on to state that one possible approach would be to require the production of a formal public statement of estimated costs, a timescale and milestones at all key stages, beginning with the establishment of the tribunal. Timescales and milestones have been outlined, but there is no information on costs. The meters have already been turned on to deal with the enormous costs per hour or word. It is daft. The public does not want that. Is this what we are giving the public in the interests of getting to the truth? It will be further annoyed.

As I said, the statement could be updated to take account of significant elements or propose new lines of inquiry. How will we handle that if it arises? We must consider the costs and what could be done with the money involved. Much of the support work at tribunals is done using counsel and there appears to be scope to achieve economies by using less experienced paralegal or professional staff for research and investigation work. I am not having a dig at my learned colleague, but we have to examine that because our experience has been that costs are a runaway train. We have to be accountable. There needs to be a move away from engaging counsel for discrete modules. We need to implement a scheme of predetermined fee rates for future tribunals which takes account of the certainty of the work of tribunals in determining those rates.

I have a faith An Garda Síochána but I have no faith in Tusla. I opposed the children's rights referendum – I was the only Deputy to do so at the time. I have been vindicated because look at what we got. We rushed into different things. The Taoiseach engaged in silliness when he said he appointed the first Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. He threw the current Minister under the bus during the week, or tried to do so. The Minister was not in the Chamber yesterday for one word of the debate. She was here to vote. I wished her well and complimented her when she returned from her trip to the United States for bringing clarity to what went on and where. It was a timely reminder to the Taoiseach of where he was and was not, and who he did and did not meet. It takes two people to meet. If one has an imaginary meeting, the other person can always say it did not happen.

Superintendent Dave Taylor is a good Tipperary man and we have all met Sergeant McCabe. They know what has gone on. He has been reappointed to his position, which I welcome. We must get to the bottom of this matter.

Reference has been made to Deputy Deasy and other Deputies. I discussed a case at some length with Deputy O'Callaghan which I could bring into a tribunal.

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