Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputies who have contributed to the debate. I am grateful for the acknowledgement from some Deputies that the approach I am taking is the right way to consider this matter, namely, to take some time to reflect on what has been said here today and the suggestions that various Deputies have made. We all recognise the seriousness of the situation.

I have made it clear that we need to investigate them. If any of the allegations were proved to be true, it would have the most serious consequences. A number of Deputies have made the point and I accept it.

I see merit in a number of the suggestions that have been made here today on the terms of reference. A number of the suggestions proposed had fairly widespread support across the House. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan suggested an amendment and made the point that there are two questions at the heart of the commission, including whether there was a campaign against Sergeant Maurice McCabe, particularly using the circumstances surrounding a criminal complaint. A number of Deputies, including Deputies Jonathan O'Brien, Brendan Howlin and Clare Daly, felt there was merit in Deputy O'Callaghan's suggestion. Deputy O'Callaghan felt the terms of reference could be worded in such a way that would deal with it more effectively than the way they are worded now. He thought the wording under the terms of reference could be interpreted as being too restrictive.

I am not sure it is too restrictive. I would have thought it could have covered any allegation or criminal complaint. I have no doubt Mr. Justice O'Neill worded his terms of reference based on the specific details that were alleged to him. The terms of reference give Mr. Justice O'Neill broad scope in conducting the commission and if anything else comes to his attention, it is built into the terms of reference that he can deal with it. Notwithstanding that, I accept that it is right to put beyond doubt the matter Deputy Jim O'Callaghan raised and I will include it fully in the terms of reference. To summarise my approach to it, I agree the commission needs to be fully able to pursue the issue of the criminal complaint being used improperly. I will address the point in the revised draft order which I will put before the Government reflecting the amendment which Deputy Jim O'Callaghan suggested.

A number of Members also made the point that there had been contact with the then Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. Deputies raised the question of whether there had been similar contacts with members of the Government. Some Deputies asked whether there had been contact with other Members of the House. If there have been, nobody has put them in the public arena, as far as I am aware. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan suggested that we include in the terms of reference whether there was contact with members of the Government. I accept it, I have no problem with it and it is sensible. I have no objection to doing it. Obviously, I have to go to the Cabinet to change the terms of reference. If the commission is looking at contacts with the then Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, it would be reasonable to examine whether there had been similar contacts with members of the Government. I will ask the commission to examine it. I have no difficulty agreeing to it.

Other Deputies have talked about extending it to all Members of the House and agencies. It was Mr. Justice O'Neill who had access to the relevant material and who was best placed to decide how it would be dealt with and make a judgement call on the terms of reference in order to get at the truth. The more changes we make to the terms of reference and the greater the number of matters we ask the commission to investigate, the longer it will take to establish the truth. This is something on which we should seriously reflect. We have had experience of tribunals and commissions that went on for very long times. We must take a reasonable approach that deals with the central issues raised today but does not extend the terms of reference so much that the time period will be much longer. As so many Members have said today, it should be dealt with in a timely way. Deputy John Curran felt even nine months was too long and suggested it should be dealt with in a more efficient and timely way.

There is a provision to amend the terms of reference of a commission of investigation after it has been established, if matters emerge which warrant it. I would have no difficulty pursuing it in the course of the commission sitting and Deputies could always use the mechanism. Some people said the commission's remit should be extended to cases of other people who have made disclosures. As is clear from the statement of reasons, Mr. Justice O'Neill recommends it. Because of the nature of protected disclosures and the rights of confidentiality of the people involved, I have previously explained to the House that I do not comment on individual cases. However, a number of cases are under consideration by GSOC and I do not want to do anything to interfere with any statutory examination or investigation which is currently under way. It is open to members of the Garda Síochána, to make protected disclosures about any aspect of how they believe they are being treated.

Mr. Justice O'Neill decided a commission of investigation was warranted into very specific matters. He described them as unique, given who they were against and the seriousness of them, which we have acknowledged here. It would be wrong to take the view that a commission is the only way we have to examine the issues. GSOC has been given a very specific statutory role regarding these issues and it is very important that it is allowed to do its work. GSOC wants to establish a very specific protected disclosures unit, which would be the appropriate place for such cases to go. I have discussed this with the chairman of GSOC, the Government will support and resource the unit and GSOC is establishing it. I am also doing the ten-year review of GSOC legislation.

I have, at all times, attempted to deal with these issues in the most timely manner possible. Deputy John Curran raised the point. I received the two protected disclosures on Monday, 3 October. I asked Judge O'Neill to review them on the following Friday, 7 October. I received his review on 7 December. The Attorney General gave advice on the complex issues that were involved due to the interaction between the Constitution, protected disclosures and a commission of investigation. Given that it is very complex legally to decide what can be put in the public domain and the various issues, it took time to examine them. However, I have acted in a very timely manner.

One message is clear to me from today's debate. We absolutely must continually work to ensure we have proper arrangements for Garda oversight and accountability. Allegations cannot be resolved here. We must have an effective way of dealing with them in a way that protects those who make disclosures while respecting the rights of all to the fairness which is a cornerstone of our Constitution. I thank the Deputies for the input and I will revert to the House with a revised draft for approval by the House.

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