Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this motion. I commend Deputy Wallace on his tenacity and dogged pursuit of this issue. It is fair to say that these matters would not have been subject to the ongoing investigations and scrutiny were it not for his interventions and comments in the House and elsewhere.

There can be no doubt that the allegations surrounding the sale of NAMA's Northern Ireland loan book are of an extremely serious nature. When public money is at stake, we have a duty to act and protect the public interest. Fianna Fáil has been consistent in demanding that all aspects of the Project Eagle sale be thoroughly examined and investigated. Last October, I moved a motion on behalf of Fianna Fáil calling for a commission of investigation under the terms of the 2004 Act on the basis that the allegations were of such a serious nature that the public would demand nothing less than a comprehensive inquiry to get to the truth and make clear findings in respect of any wrong-doing on the part of individuals. I stated clearly that any suggestion that the taxpayers did not receive the return they deserved must be thoroughly investigated, as should any allegation of improper conduct in the sale. There is a risk that a question mark will always hang over this transaction and NAMA as a whole for as long as there remain outstanding questions that have not been adequately investigated.

In its evidence to the Committee of Public Accounts and its public commentary on Project Eagle, NAMA has argued consistently that no issue has arisen regarding the sales side of the transaction. As I stated last October, however, that is not an adequate answer. Ultimately, the decision to proceed with the sale of Project Eagle was made by NAMA in Dublin and NAMA must account for the entirety of that transaction.

Based on the information and allegations in the public domain surrounding Project Eagle, a commission of investigation is warranted. That remains the Fianna Fáil view. The question is whether a commission would stand any chance of success running in parallel with a criminal investigation that is gathering pace. Our honest assessment is that a commission of investigation established in the Republic in the heat of an accelerating criminal investigation in the North would most likely run into the sand quickly. This would serve no purpose. Do we really believe that key people involved in this transaction and living in Northern Ireland would voluntarily co-operate with a commission of investigation in the Republic while arrests were being made in the North?

Almost a year ago, the UK's NCA commenced an investigation into Project Eagle. For a long time, there were no updates. Then, just last month, two arrests were made in Northern Ireland. The persons concerned have already been named in this House as Mr. Frank Cushnahan, a former member of the NAMA Northern Ireland advisory committee, and Mr. Ronnie Hanna, who was head of asset recovery at NAMA during the Project Eagle sale. Reports indicate that this represents a significant change of pace in the investigation. Both men are, of course, entitled to the presumption of innocence. It is not known if further arrests are planned, but let there be no doubt about it, the arrests represented a significant development and followed searches in County Down. The men concerned have been released on bail as part of a fraud investigation. These are the facts that we know. These developments only serve to confirm the grave concerns that many of us have expressed about Project Eagle.

Concerns are one thing but the task of the NCA is to establish whether crimes were committed. None of us in the House is privy to the details of where the criminal investigation is at currently. However, we can only assume that, given recent developments, it is at a sensitive stage. It would be a breach of public trust were the House to engage in anything at this point that would hinder or otherwise limit the work that is being undertaken by the NCA.

I assure Deputy Wallace that there is no deal between Fianna Fáil and the Government, that we have not been "got to" by any powerful agency or authority in this State or any other. Our amendment is based on our honest assessment that a commission of investigation at this time would run into the sand quickly, as has the Cregan commission, albeit in this case because arrests have been made in Northern Ireland and a criminal investigation is presumably at an advanced stage. We have not changed our view on the importance of getting to the bottom of this matter. In fact, all the information that has come to light since then has confirmed our view that fundamental questions remain to be answered.

What influence did NAMA's Northern Ireland advisory committee have on NAMA's decision to offer the Project Eagle portfolio for sale at a time when PIMCO wanted to buy it, initially on an off-market basis? Did the board of NAMA decide it was a good time to sell the portfolio because of the intense interest of PIMCO? What influence did Mr. Cushnahan, as a member of the advisory committee until November 2013, have on that decision? While on the committee, was Mr. Cushnahan privy to a detailed discussion of Project Eagle on 7 October 2013? Did he have access to any other confidential or sensitive information about Project Eagle? When exactly did he become engaged with PIMCO? How extensive was the overlap in time, if any, between his involvement with PIMCO and his role as an adviser to NAMA?

What information, if any, was given to PIMCO? Did Mr. Cushnahan give any advice to Cerberus, given that Cerberus engaged Brown Rudnick, or did Brown Rudnick already have information that it could provide to Cerberus? Why did NAMA permit Cerberus to use the services of Brown Rudnick and Tughans when the reason PIMCO was ejected from the process was that part of Brown Rudnick's fees were to be paid to Mr. Cushnahan? Why was £7 million from Cerberus diverted into an offshore account in the Isle of Man and for whom was the money ultimately destined? Is there any substance to the extraordinary allegation made in this Chamber by Deputy Wallace that some £45 million was to be paid in so-called fixer fees? Any of the allegations, if proven, would cause irreparable damage not just to NAMA, but to the State.

Fianna Fáil is tabling an amendment to the motion. Our position is clear. Based on what is currently in the public domain, we believe that a full commission of investigation is necessary, but that the decision to establish one should not be made until the criminal investigation has been completed. We did not say to wait until any Comptroller and Auditor General or Committee of Public Accounts review had been completed. We referred to the criminal investigation.

While the work done by the Stormont finance committee was well intentioned, it failed to come to definitive conclusions. It made an important finding to the effect that the decision by NAMA not to suspend the sales process when it was informed in 2014 about related proposed fee arrangements with Brown Rudnick and to a former external member of NAMA's Northern Ireland advisory committee was of serious concern. Recently, Ms Claire Hanna, MLA and Deputy Chairperson of the Stormont finance committee, stated:

Despite months of investigation, the full facts around various property deals undertaken by NAMA and the involvement of certain individuals has not become clear. I will be ensuring that the Finance Committee reopens its investigation into the Project Eagle deal.

This demonstrates the complexity of the issues under investigation.

The 2004 Act under which a commission of investigation would be established can only compel Irish citizens to attend.

It is highly unlikely that it would enjoy full co-operation from citizens outside the jurisdiction in the heat of an ongoing criminal investigation. The Stormont finance committee listed 18 witnesses whose evidence would need to be heard if the inquiry was to be successful in getting at the truth. It is difficult to see a commission in the Republic being successful in persuading many of these individuals to attend.

There is already one commission of investigation set up in the State to inquire into serious financial matters arising from the banking collapse, namely, the Cregan commission, which is investigating loan write-offs at IBRC. We strongly supported the establishment of that commission and still believe it was the right thing to do, given the intense controversy that surrounded the Siteserv transaction, in particular. However, it has got nowhere so far. It is my firm belief the public wants to find out the truth about what happened in Project Eagle. If criminal wrongdoing has taken place, the public wants those responsible to be held to account before the courts. I look forward to the Committee of Public Accounts, chaired by Deputy Sean Fleming, reviewing the section 9 value for money review of Project Eagle being carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General. These are important steps in achieving full public accountability.

When all is said and done, there is a very strong likelihood that a commission of investigation will be needed and we will not shirk from tabling or supporting a motion calling for this to happen when the time is right. This needs to be done when it has the best possible chance of succeeding. Deputy Mick Wallace, in elaborating on his motion, said it would deal only with issues within the Republic. He spoke about governance issues within NAMA, the approval process, the Department of Finance and the Minister for Finance, but none of that is clear in the motion tabled by him which refers to "all the facts surrounding the sale". If the Deputy has a more focused, specific proposal in mind for an investigation concerning Project Eagle that would not in any way hinder or contravene the work being done in Northern Ireland, he should table it.

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