Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

Professor Joe Lee was on "Sunday with Miriam", Miriam O'Callaghan's radio show on RTE, last Sunday. He is one of our best historians and I listened with interest to such an impartial and reasoned observer. He was superb. He said something one does not often hear. He said that for all our stupidity and failings, we were battered but we stood back up. We looked up and out and maintained that value of resilience and strength. Professor Lee said in the modern world we are a success. I agree, for all our failings and stupidity. At a recent meeting I was asked what I liked most about Ireland and what I thought was the reason for this success. I think it is because we have an unarmed police force and an independent judicial system.

Our system has flaws. There are instances when our gardaí are not straight an our courts get it wrong. However it is a strength. We do not stand up for our democratic institutions enough. Our political system is one of the other strengths, including this talking shop. Talking shops are not bad things. Those who give out most about talking shops are those in the media who make their money out of talking to people. We are part of the institutional fabric. I like the fact that this is a citizens' assembly, as Deputy Coppinger said earlier. We are a representative body.

The legal system is similar. Without a detailed knowledge or understanding of it, I see from afar that a jury is a fundamental cornerstone of the strength of an independent system. The Oireachtas is similar, albeit we are elected while a jury is selected on a random basis. A jury is a cornerstone of a republican, democratic, constitutional system. We rely on juries in ways that sometimes surprise us. There have been recent cases in which everybody might have expected the politically correct thing would be a certain judgment, but in which juries have surprised us. Having heard the evidence over a long period, they have refused to convict someone, whereas if the trial had been judged by other means, the accused probably would have been convicted. I stand by the concept of jury trials and the independence and strength of our judicial system being based on our adhering to certain intrinsic values and qualities.

It is understandable, and when in government the Green Party was involved in passing a motion on the legislation. It is tricky. One is in government and is faced with gangland murders, evidence is presented that suggests jury trials are not possible due to intimidation of witnesses, and one responds in legislation. It is appropriate that both pieces of legislation have the safety clause that they must go back to the Oireachtas which considers whether we will continue with these unusual provisions, which are breaches of the basic principles around evidence, jury trial, being able to draw inference and being able to imprison people for a period of time. It is appropriate that we consider it.

I have listened to what some of the previous speakers have said and have come to a common understanding that the pieces of legislation do not necessarily guarantee us the security they were introduced with the very good intention of providing. I agree with the speakers who see that the cause of the gangland problems in our city is the ability of gangs to make huge amounts of money from trading in drugs and that a far more effective approach to undermining this undoubted threat to our security and peace would be to change the laws around how we criminalise the possession or use of certain drugs.

We must be careful with it because, as Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett said, no Member will argue that would not have consequences - not health reasons - which should be taken into account. However, it would fundamentally be a better approach to take at this time to tackle the gangs rather than relying so much on different judicial proceedings to prosecute them, an approach that does not seem to work.

Similarly, when it comes to offences against the State, it is more difficult because, in some ways, it goes to the cornerstone of the State. If there are people with a fundamentally different view from the one I articulated - the view Professor Joe Lee expressed in the programme I referenced - and they believe the State needs to be changed radically through a revolutionary process or that, in any way, terrorist attacks can be justified in the name of an alterative vision for the State, that is a more difficult issue. However, the ultimate way to police against this and to defeat such a mentality is to adhere to the values of the Constitution and the inherent freedoms we expect the legal system to provide for us. The ongoing existence of these provisions in the Act is not worth the undermining of these basic principles of the democratic constitutional structures within the State.

The original crime which resulted in the instigation of this legislation was the Omagh bombings, as well as the failure of the policing system, and, despite the introduction of the legislation and doing what we could to support a worthy approach to bringing the people who had been involved in that terrible heinous crime to justice, we have been unable to do so. I believe in the structures of good policing in our independent judicial system. The provisions set out in this legislation which the Minister is asking us to retain will not necessarily assist us and the Green Party will not support their continued use. We should see how we survive without them.

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