Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I did not interrupt Deputy Coppinger and I would appreciate if she would respect my democratic right to make my points.

Freedom of conscience will apply, and the Oireachtas has dealt with this before through Green Papers that considered all the scenarios and options. I believe a judge-led commission initiative would feed into an all-party Oireachtas committee and would be the best route to deal with this. Irrespective of one's views on this, an Oireachtas committee has the capacity, with legal backup, to go through all the scenarios.

There are legal, social, moral and ethical issues. It is not a simple straightforward issue, as some would portray it to be, and people have different views. Even the most liberal agree that there is a point at which a termination should be illegal. Maybe others do not accept that point but even the most liberal accept that it should be illegal at some point. There is no country without laws, be they constitutional or legislative, governing and concerning abortion.

The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that the Oireachtas should be centre stage in relation to it. I really would like an explanation from the Taoiseach as to how that core issue of what would replace the current law is to be addressed because, ultimately, whatever the citizens' assembly decides, it has to come back in here. I do not know whether the citizens' assembly will be decided by pollsters with some sort of polling company again being recruited to conduct an assessment of what it thinks reflects a sample. Polling companies and their samples have got it hopelessly wrong in the United States and hopelessly wrong in the United Kingdom. They got our election hopelessly wrong as well. I told everybody that for six months in advance and no commentator would listen but that is another day's work. There are significant issues with polling companies around sampling techniques, etc., and that is something that should be factored in here in terms of how the citizens' assembly will be established.

In terms of the eighth amendment issue, there is a legitimate question also of how can the process be run in such a way as to ensure that it is not just the loudest voices that get a hearing. I attended a hearing of the Constitutional Convention and I am not so sure what transpired on the day I was there reflected where the vast majority of the Irish people were in terms of those who were to advocate, make submissions, etc. A citizens' assembly is a wrong term. There is only one citizens' assembly, that is, the one elected by democratic franchise - direct election by the people. What tends to happen when such structures are established is that those who are selected - they are well meaning; I have no difficulty with that - very often become subject to the loudest lobby group or advocacy group of the day but the vast majority of people living in the country are going about their daily lives and are largely removed from the deliberations of it. That can happen all democratic institutions or public fora where matters are discussed but there was a sense of that in the Constitutional Convention and there is an issue as to how one can ensure that it is not just the loudest voices get a hearing, particularly on an issue as sensitive as this one will be. If it is ultimately dealt with through a proper process in the Oireachtas, at least everybody in here is answerable to the people. The people can judge their elected representatives on how they speak, advocate and vote on an issue in this House. On balance, I would be of a view that a complex issue such as this, an issue that is central to how our democratic system works, should be determined by the Oireachtas, and I would put that to the Taoiseach.

I take it the Taoiseach is saying it will be six months before it is established.

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