Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am just talking in nice, calm, measured way. I welcome Deputy Murphy's clarification but I am just noting the message it sends out. People really feel that justice is difficult to come by for many people and can be very costly, and they feel aggrieved that a Member of the House finds an easier way than most people to do it. I am just saying that I would question that if I were Deputy Murphy.

The Acting Chairman made a good comment in his contribution earlier when he said the problem was that these main gangland and serious criminals just do not care about laws. They are not afraid of them. That is our biggest concern. No matter what laws are introduced and no matter what we do, they are not afraid enough of them. The laws do not deter them from doing what they call their business. All of us have a duty to find new ways to take them on. Anyone who studies crime will know that the biggest deterrent is the fear of being caught. It is not the fear of what happens after one is caught and it is not fear of the law. It is the fear of being caught. It is fair to say that many of these guys do not fear being caught. That is why we collectively - I think every Member recommends it - have to put more resources into An Garda Síochána. Anywhere we can, we have to find money to do that.

There is no denying that the force does not have the numbers it needs to do its job properly. We have an excellent force doing excellent work, including the community gardaí, who do great and essential work. However, they do not have enough resources. That is the situation we have been in for the past four or five years. Now, with the extra money coming through the system from job creation, including in the private sector, and people beginning to earn more money and pay more taxes - taxes are up again this year - we have to ensure that when we are allocating these resources through all the new ways we will do business in the Dáil, by consensus, the Garda gets the resources it needs to do its job properly. The target that has been set is to increase Garda numbers to 14,000 or 15,000. Even in so-called boom times, we were well off those numbers. We got to a little over 14,000 once. The magic figure is probably about 15,000. We need to find a way and plot a course to get there as quickly as we possibly can. There is more than one way to do it. Reopening the college, as Deputy Farrell said, was essential, and we can never again close it. We have to put the resources into it. However, the legislation allows for other professionals to be brought into the force to work with it and to work alongside it to train new and qualified gardaí. There is a new qualification as well. There are many people who have skills and qualifications that are essential to beating these criminals and to tackling and preventing crime. I understand the legislation - going back as far as a previous Government of which Senator Michael McDowell was a member - allows for this. We have to find some way to encourage more of it. That will help us strengthen the numbers. Deputy Farrell mentioned this as well, and I worked on the committee. We really have to do that because there are people who have really useful qualifications. These are professional qualifications that are needed. We have to find some way to have them employed in the force. In most cases, because they have their own financial commitments, they will not be able to start again and go back to the training college in a similar way to a young person who decides to go to Garda college as opposed to ordinary college. It is a little different. We have to find some way to close that gap, but it is essential that we do that to strengthen the force and to make it a very professional one.

We have top-class people in the force and I have seen them operate with limited resources in all our counties, including in Navan in County Meath.

They are doing essential work and we have to find them the money and resources they need. This means adapting the laws, but we have to find laws that the criminals are afraid of.

I will not go back to Deputy Murphy's comments about free legal aid. However, there is an issue with the bail laws and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, tackled and changed that last year. That will help and strengthen those laws. Nothing is worse and nothing sickens people more than seeing criminals who should be behind bars, who are dangerous and a danger to society walking about freely while out on bail. This applies to repeat offenders who are able to abuse the bail laws, something they have been doing for years. That is being tackled now and we have to ensure it works.

Those who belong in prison are a danger to society but those who are not a danger do not belong in prison. We have to use all the powers we have to ensure this holds. We have changed the laws in recent years to allow for this and to allow them outside prison, whether through paying fines or whatever. Legislation has been brought through the House to facilitate that. Electronic tagging is allowed and was brought in legally some years ago. The law was changed and strengthened again in 2015 by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald. We have to use these laws to ensure those who do not belong in prison are not clogging up the system. We have to concentrate our efforts on this as well.

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