Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent) | Oireachtas source

Yes, it was a little frightening. However, it will not be long before we are paying that amount anyway. It has already gone over the £500 level in Britain. The companies that run the water companies there are making a fortune from supplying water. They have become very wealthy. Anybody who thinks water will be cheap in this country a few years hence is living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Deputy Fleming asked what the Government might have against people living in apartments. I must agree that people who live in apartments, especially in large apartment blocks, have a huge extra expense. Before I speak about apartments, the Minister of State said in response to the Deputy's arguments that there is a level playing field with regard to housing estates. I cannot accept that. Housing estates that were built years ago in Wexford do not have management companies, so there are no management charges. The local authority takes care of matters. However, more recently built estates have management companies and a management fee must be paid. Both pay the same local property tax. Many of these houses have been bought and are now privately owned. I do not know how the Minister of State can argue that the two are on a level playing field, because the field is not level.

With regard to apartments, management companies will become extremely problematic in the city. Sadly, I was a director of about seven of them and I could not wait to get out of them. They are very difficult and problematic to run and are very expensive. People in Dublin are paying up to €2,000 per year in management fees for apartments, and it is not because they are being robbed by the management companies. There are good and bad management companies, just as there is good and bad in everything in business. However, if an apartment block has five lifts, for example, the cost of maintaining the lifts is astronomical. The five lifts might serve 30 apartments, which is not as unusual as one might think. If the block of 30 apartments has only one lift, it is obviously much cheaper. Many people went into this somewhat on the blind side. They signed up for leases which provided for a management fee, but many of them are shocked at how high the fees are. The average for Dublin city, especially in the city centre area, is probably €1,600 to €1,700 per year. If people are paying this for management services, it is draconian to ask them to pay the property tax as well.

The Minister of State made the point that if Deputy Fleming's Bill were passed, and I support it, an extra amount of millions of euro would be missing and he asked where we would get it. If any action such as this were taken, money would have to be raised elsewhere. However, surely fairness is a major aspect. The concept that we create as level a playing field as possible to treat everybody fairly must be a strong factor and mitigate against the extra cost. We know that everything costs money, but a government must have the primary objective of applying fairness in any way it can.

The management companies carry out cleaning that is not done by the local authorities. For example, the management company in Quartier Bloom, the Italian quarter which we still control, cleans the area. The local authority does not get involved in the cleaning of the outside areas. We must do it. However, other people have the benefit of the local authority cleaning the area around their apartments and they might not have a management fee. There are people paying money to management companies for things that the local authorities do in other areas. Due to how the apartments are structured, the management fees will not go away. The apartments are expensive to look after and that will not change.

Legislation will probably be required in the management company area. There are many problems in that area which I do not have time to discuss in detail today, but it will become a bigger issue over time. The idea that people should pay €1,600 to €1,700 per year as well as a property tax should be re-examined. It definitely deserves further thought because it is just too big an ask for too many people.

A point was made about people in apartments having to pay the flat water charge. It is significant that charging for water was not envisaged when planning for apartments was given over the past 20 years. It is a surprise to the people that they now must pay directly for water. Obviously, I do not agree with it. Deputy Fleming mentioned that the chances of putting meters in these buildings are quite slim. It can be done, but at huge cost. If water becomes so expensive and if a private company ever gets control of it, it probably will set about doing that but I presume, although I have not seen any planning conditions recently, that one will have to put meters in the basements and instead of running one pipe to feed 15 apartments there will have to be 15 pipes and a meter on each of them in the basement. Putting them outside the door of each apartment is not really an option because it will create a problem with regard to giving people access to check them and so forth. It would have to be done through the basements. Most of these apartment blocks will not be rectified or retro-fitted with meters so imposing a flat charge on them is draconian.

It is another issue the Government should examine.

Fairness and the need to create a level playing field dictates that the Government is a little hasty in not supporting this Bill. It deserved some consideration. Even if it were allowed to move to the next Stage we could have a serious debate on it because there are pros and cons around the entire area.

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