Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

No doubt there are a number of different players in this saga and it is worthwhile having a debate in the Chamber. It is important to ensure we do not make allegations or use half-truths to denigrate any individual or organisation in this Chamber at any time.

NAMA is very much the subject of tonight's debate. The agency has operated under legislation passed by Dáil Éireann. Thus far, it seems to be completely innocent of any alleged wrongdoing as far as fraud is concerned. In fact, the only charge thrown against the agency to date is that it did not, perhaps, have the proper business practices in place or that it could have done more to extract value from the loans. This has been confirmed by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The latter has also confirmed that his investigation will prioritise a value-for-money review of the sale of the Northern Ireland portfolio and all assets within that portfolio.

NAMA operates under instruction from the Oireachtas, with a certain input from the Department of Finance. However, as every member of the Opposition is aware, the board of NAMA is fully independent and free to make decisions about achieving the best value for money for Irish taxpayers. Let us consider with what the agency has had to deal. NAMA was set up by the State to deal with €34 billion of variable assets. As many Opposition Members will recall from when we discussed this matter at the very outset, some of these assets were nothing but junk, some were performing poorly and others were normal performing loans. People would be naive to think that there would be absolutely no problems considering the economic mess the country was in. Most Members present tonight sat through all the debates in both Chambers on the establishment of NAMA and are aware of the reasons for setting it up and the crisis which obtained at the time. There have been numerous debates about the legitimacy of the NAMA Act, the NAMA business plan and whether the staff were up to it. I imagine the Deputies opposite have heard the same whispered gossip and allegations of dodgy business dealings by individuals in NAMA. However, no one has ever said that NAMA is in any way corrupt and no one has made any allegations of fraudulent or unethical behaviour against it. There has been nothing of that nature in all the time this organisation has been in existence. NAMA has come before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and the Committee of Public Accounts. Certainly, we argue with the officials, including Frank Daly and Brendan McDonagh. However, Deputy Michael McGrath is in the same position as me in that throughout my following of this conflict and the crisis to date, neither of us can point to a smoking gun in the hand of Frank Daly, Brendan McDonagh or anyone from with NAMA for whom we have the utmost regard. We would do ourselves a disservice by standing up for these half-truths that are being bandied about.

We are calling for a major review but some of this is completely outside our scope. There may be sharp practices in Northern Ireland. I am unsure how business operates there. Perhaps there are certain individuals in what is probably a small business community. Perhaps there are certain individuals who know all the people who have these loans. Perhaps they can contact these individuals at the weekend and ask how much they would be prepared to pay and put together a reasonable idea of what personal guarantees can be delivered if an outside investor bought into a given company. I am unsure whether the informed opinion paid for by these international investors can be considered to be real or whether there is an unethical dimension to it. That is what has been alleged. It has been alleged that some fraudulent activity has gone on within the business community in Northern Ireland. I am unsure but perhaps that is what happens within business.

There is an issue around the Law Society of Northern Ireland. Perhaps it needs to step up to the plate, investigate its members quickly and decide whether there has been sharp practice relating to alleged fraud, criminal activity or unethical behaviour by certain individuals within the legal profession in Northern Ireland. That needs to be done speedily if Northern Ireland wants to be perceived as a destination for inward investment in future and wants to compete with what is happening in our economy. For the same reason, it is important for the PSNI to conduct its investigations rapidly if serious allegations have been made about criminal activity around the NAMA sale.

As the Deputy opposite indicated, there has been much talk about this matter. No allegations have been made to the effect that NAMA is in any way involved in dirty dealings, underhand practices or unethical behaviour. It has stood the test of time. Deputy Michael McGrath has been involved with various relevant committees of the House. No one among the management of NAMA has got an easy ride at meetings of those committees. They get rough, tough questioning when they come to this House and they answer every question we put to them. We can e-mail them. Of course, they will not deal with individual issues but they can deal with anything around the legislation and the business plan of NAMA. They have always answered those questions clearly. We should be very careful about who we are laying these accusations against. We need to be careful about what we say in this House.

I am happy to leave it to the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the business practices of NAMA and obtain an independent assessment. That is important for the taxpayer. The Comptroller and Auditor General must establish whether NAMA is doing its job and following the procedures expected of it by the Oireachtas.

We cannot be 100% right on the matter. Perhaps NAMA has been a victim of the economic success that this country has gone through. A vendor may have been considered daft for buying a certain asset three years ago but now may be considered to have got a bargain. Perhaps that is the way the business practice went. I am keen to hear what other Opposition Members have to say. No one is saying there is any allegation of unethical behaviour relating to senior management within NAMA. Certainly, no one is saying anything to the effect that there is any sort of alleged criminal activity by anyone within NAMA. These issues are important to put on the record when we consider both the vast size of NAMA, as an organisation, and the major responsibility it has been given. We should consider this in the context of the major economic crisis the country underwent at the time.

If there are questions to be answered about how procedures were followed in Northern Ireland by the PSNI, the Law Society of Northern Ireland or the political establishment in Northern Ireland, that is a different matter. That is not our responsibility. I would be far happier for those organisations to answer the questions that Deputy Michael McGrath has posed. They should answer those questions quickly in order that we can see it as a necessity for us to go further in this jurisdiction. However, NAMA has completely played its role - as expected - with both the Northern Ireland Assembly and the various the regulatory organisations in the North. It is important that this should continue to be the case.

We can continue, if necessary, to proceed further by calling representatives from NAMA to come before the relevant committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas on foot of the outcome of the Comptroller and Auditor General report in some weeks' time. However, let us not undermine or in any way denigrate the character of individuals who have worked tirelessly for this country in recent years to get us out of the incredible mess we found ourselves in. I believe we are working closely with political parties in Northern Ireland to come to the end of this. This matters because the future of Northern Ireland is very much connected to our economic and political future. It is important that there be no ambiguity regarding how business is done in Northern Ireland. I hope that matter will be cleared up as quickly as possible for the sake of the people who are trying to make a living and make business work in Northern Ireland. That is very important for all of us.

My final comment relates to some of the remarks and the pure stupidity of Opposition Members referring to loans worth of €5.6 billion which were then sold for only €1.6 billion. The economic ignorance is either pure stupidity or simply amounts to trying to play a political game. Deputy Michael McGrath might consider giving a lesson to the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party about what happened in this country and why loans which were borrowed on assets and which were worth €5.6 billion decreased in value to €1.6 billion in a couple of years. Some of that was pure speculation of the daftest kind, coupled with an economic crisis that literally put us on our knees.

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