Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I agree with Deputy Murphy that the fewer people we have in prison, the better. There are many good reasons for keeping people out of prison, if possible. Most people accept that prisons do not really work and that putting people in prison because they have not paid a fine of one sort or another makes little sense.

The Government says it is trying to differentiate between those who can pay, but will not pay. That is a hard call to make. Most people who cannot pay might find themselves thrown into the category of being among the people who will not pay. It is difficult for any of us to determine, and for whoever must make that decision it will be very challenging to get it right all the time. The draconian aspect of this Bill is the fact that money will be taken from people eventually, after a court process and after the amount owing has reached a certain amount. That money will be taken from people who are already struggling and in a difficult position.

I suggest we should use the community service element more, although I know it would not be easy to set this up and that it would require significant work. This idea is used a lot more in other countries and I believe it has significant merit. If money is taken from people who genuinely cannot afford to pay bills, they may find themselves cutting down on what they provide for their children in some way. Children will suffer if money is taken from these families. Community service would be a much fairer system to deal with non-payment of money owed.

We kind of accept the fact that water is a human right. If it is a human right, how can a state force people to pay for it? It has been pointed out that structures whereby people pay directly for water are in place in many countries, but many of the things in place in many countries are not necessarily in place here. We do not accept that philosophy. For example, we often point out that rent control is prominent in many parts of the world but there is no appetite for it here. When we point out it works in other places, that still cuts no ice here.

It is not as if water has never been paid for through our taxation system. Of course it has. We have had water and wastewater infrastructure in place and this has been paid for through central taxation, so obviously the people pay for the water services indirectly. I believe this is a fair way of providing water services. In Piemonte in Italy, there is a charge for water, but the cost is not high. There, the state controls the system at local level. I have seen how it works there. I have seen the tanks in the mountains, seen how the water is gathered there and delivered. I have seen how it is measured and how the money is collected.

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