Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Listening to the debate so far, it indicates there will never be agreement on this issue either in this House or in broader society. It would seem some people bring this debate forward to embarrass others and cause political discomfort for some parties. I can assure Deputy Coppinger that she is not causing any political discomfort for me. We have to be mature in how we approach this issue because it has been divisive for many decades since 1983 when the eighth amendment was first introduced. It has been consistently a very emotional and divisive issue.

When one speaks to the general public, taking into account opinion polls and strongly-held views on all sides, there are varying views as to what should be available in terms of terminations or abortions. A substantial number of people believe termination should be available for fatal foetal abnormalities. In such cases, a woman is effectively forced by this State to carry a baby to full term who will not survive outside the womb. There is strong support for allowing for terminations in such cases. There are many others who believe termination should be included for pregnancy arising from incest and rape. However, there are many people who would support those three cases who would not support abortion on request. I do not believe the public would accept the idea there is a broad consensus to support the deletion of the eighth amendment, Article 40.3.3°and put nothing in its place. There is a strong view among the public that, in amending the Constitution, they would like to know what is to be put in its place. One could argue would the public actually trusts the Legislature to legislate for this particular issue if the eight amendment were repealed. The public wants to know what the Legislature intends to bring in.

There is no way there is unanimity out there in broader society that they are all in favour of one view or the other. It is not that simple as it is quite complex. Many people do believe the unborn should be afforded protection in the Constitution. It is evidenced by the fact that the original amendment was put into the Constitution and subsequently retained in recent amendments in 2002 and in the context of Supreme Court decisions. There is no uniformity of consensus out there. To pretend there is, is simply wrong. Maybe in some cases, people are being disingenuous and mischievous.

I believe the eight amendment causes difficulties in the context of fatal foetal abnormalities. I supported Deputy Clare Daly's Bill on this matter at the time. I also believe it creates difficulties in the area of women's health. The legislation passed by this Dáil is very confining in the sense that it only affords protection for the woman in the context of her life being at risk. That in itself also causes difficulties for clinicians and women in making decisions in this regard. To argue the majority who support termination because of fatal foetal abnormalities, incest or rape would also support broader terminations on request is not accurate. It is simply not the case.

We can never legislate or base our decisions on opinion polls. It is important we have a full debate and discourse on this matter as a people. Everybody wants to duck this particular issue but it is time we confronted the many problems we have with terminations in this country with regard to fatal foetal abnormalities, pregnancies arising from incest and rape and the broader issue of abortion on demand. Until such time as we have a mature debate on this - not the point-scoring as evidenced here this morning - we will have to accept this Legislature and possibly the next one cannot deal with this. We do need to set up some form of commission at which all views can be expressed. Maybe then a consensus can be arrived at in the key areas of fatal foetal abnormalities, for which there is a strong consensus across the House, and other certain circumstances involving a threat to the health of a woman.

I do not believe that the vast majority of the public want abortion on demand in statute in this country. I may be proved wrong about that at some stage in the future, but as I stand here today I do not believe that is the case. Many people will go some way towards agreeing to this in terms of accepting the ground of fatal foetal abnormality on the basis of a compassionate human approach, while others will instance the grounds of incest and rape, and others will say it is the right and entitlement of a woman to have an abortion on request. However, to bring those four views together and say that everybody on that side of the debate is supporting a liberal abortion regime is disingenuous and, to say the very least, inaccurate.

I and many others believe that the unborn is entitled to protection and that we must make very difficult decisions about when an entitlement to protection should be overridden in circumstances involving the life and health of the woman or whether we should adopt a compassionate approach in cases involving fatal foetal abnormality. We will not get consensus on this in the Chamber, even with the number of Deputies present, as this debate will always be divisive.

The Minister should examine the establishment of a commission whereby an arrangement could be made to address some of the issues on which we may get agreement, such as in the area of fatal foetal abnormality. Many Members have expressed the view previously in this Chamber that abortion should not be allowed in cases of fatal foetal abnormality, but I believe those grounds should be included for many reasons.

The proposition that this Bill will address the problem is simply not true, because the public will not know what the Legislature is offering in terms of repealing the eighth amendment. For that reason, this Bill will not achieve a great deal other than causing the usual embarrassment and discomfort for some political parties and individuals in this House. The broader issue is still not being addressed despite our frequent debates, and the proposers know full well that, other than keeping the issue under public discussion, the Bill achieves very little in terms of addressing issues such as the health of the mother, fatal foetal abnormalities and some other areas that people in the middle ground believe should be examined. To delete the eighth amendment without offering the public an alternative, either in legislation or by way of a further amendment to the Constitution, would not be acceptable to the public at large. It would be another divisive debate and we could end up exactly where we are now. If we are interested in addressing the problem in one meaningful step, we should establish a commission - it has worked in other areas - whereby broad consensus could be reached at some stage among those in the middle ground in this debate. There are extreme views on both sides which will never meet. However, a vast body of people would like to show compassion in cases involving fatal foetal abnormalities or where the health of the mother is affected, and would like to address the chilling effect on clinicians, which the Minister mentioned. Those are areas on which some consensus might be found. This Bill will not achieve much other than bringing embarrassment to some. The Labour Party was singled out by the Deputy, and she has described Fianna Fáil in her usual eloquent way, which does not achieve much and certainly does not progress her argument.

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