David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am delighted that the Minister of State was present to listen to and take part in the debate. It is timely that we are debating these issues. It is a shame, however, that it took two years for the report to land in the House. We should now work to find time to have reports such as this, if we value them, debated much earlier. I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath that we should be able to find time within months of their publication. A lot goes on here that we could do without. I wonder, however, about the value of having this debate at this time on a Friday, with just three Members present, and whether we should have it at another time of the week, when there would be more colleagues present to hear what was being said and take part. A great deal of time and work go into these reports. Many people travel from different parts of the country to give of their expertise and we do them a disservice when we do not give time, space and prominence to debate reports properly. I call for a rethink of that structure.

We spoke about front door and back door policies. I quote what Mr. Jimmy Martin from the Department of Justice and Equality told the committee:

On the mental health issue, the percentage of people in prison that suffer from mental illness as compared with the average number of people per head of population suffering with a mental illness is high. This is not too surprising for a number of reasons. People who engage in substance abuse are more prone to mental illness than others. One of the affects [sic] of taking mind altering drugs is psychosis. There are a range of different people within the prison system, including people who were in reasonably good mental health when they arrived in prison but who have developed mental illness while there. As such, their mental illness has nothing to do with their offending behaviour but developed either as a result of substance abuse or the prison environment, which can be quite alien for most people.

That comment from an expert and a dedicated professional is worth bearing in mind in reducing the numbers in prison and using alternatives. We need to consider the excellent work being done on shoestring budgets by groups such as Care after Prison, the Irish Association for the Integration of Offenders, IASIO, the Etruscan Centre, the Cornmarket Centre in Youghal and the Churchfield Centre in Cork. Such small groups are to be found all over the country and they are very effective. Care after Prison was 100% effective in stopping reoffending.

The Minister of State is responsible for equality issues and new communities. That is welcome, but according to the Irish Penal Reform Trust:

60% of people serving sentences for 6 months or less are poor, and are often homeless people.

The majority of Irish prisoners have never sat a State exam and over half left school before the age of 15.

Four in ten children (under 16 years) on custodial remand have a learning disability.

From 1997-2011, the numbers in custody increased by almost 100%.

There were comments about the American system. I know from other reports that some states in America have reversed engines very quickly because they discovered that privatising prisons and locking people up was not working. One state was spending more on prisons than on universities. New York is a case in point in that the community court system works very well. We need to move fast on this issue. It needs political pressure, decisions and a Minister to take charge of it.

Deputy Shatter did a lot of good work when he was Minister.

Reference has been made to the new prison in Cork. Even though the cells are built for double occupancy, I understand the intention is that there would be only one person in each cell if we can continue to reduce the numbers and use the alternatives to prison. Community service is a very good alternative and I saw it working in New York. Not everybody in the community courts avoids prison, but the vast majority do, they do not re-offend and they turn their lives around and get the help they need.

There were 396 committals under immigration law in 2013. Deputy O'Dowd spoke eloquently about the 8,304 people who were committed to prisons for the non-payment of court-ordered fines. A significant amount of time and effort is involved. I have spoken to gardaí who are frustrated by this. They arrest people and bring them to prison. As Deputy O'Dowd said, the prison authorities have no choice but to send them home again. It is then deemed that the fine has been expunged. The waste of time, resources, manpower, money and policing services in doing that is enormous. Why is an alternative system not up and running?

I understand there were issues in getting funding for new computer systems. However, the imperative should be to stop that happening. Anybody who is fined should not be sent to prison. That might not happen in every case, but the vast majority of people should have their wages reduced over a period of time. Such an approach would probably have far more of an impact than taking a person to prison in a Garda car, processing him or her and letting him or her out again. Sometimes people are home before the gardaí are, which is crazy. We need to seriously examine this issue.

I welcome the fact that the report is being debated, the review of penal reform has been published by the Department of Justice and Equality, the two reports are in sync and the recommendations in both reports are matched. We still have a lot to do. We have to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath, who spoke about people who are violent and dangerous. There are no two ways about it; such people have to be taken out of circulation.

I invite the Minister of State to visit the Cornmarket Project. It has a very powerful system of dealing with difficult prisoners and challenging prisoners' behaviour and lifestyles. It works. We need to consider that.

I refer to incentivised remission and releases, where somebody earns release and gets involved in programmes, education, training and so on in a prison before he or she is released. I do not want anyone to be under any illusions. I am not saying that should happen automatically, as seems to happen. Remission should be earned. We should carefully consider the use of open prisons, such as those in Finland and other countries. Electronic bracelets could be used on the ankles of those who have been released from prison so they could be put on a curfew and obliged to stay out of certain areas. Such imaginative thinking should be used.

I welcome the fact that the number of people in prison has decreased to 3,780 today from a total of 4,400 in May 2012. We have to stay with this subject and return to it in the not too distant future, and have a full report from the Minister of State on how all of the issues are progressing.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to report to the Dáil on the work of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. I also thank my colleagues for the work they put into the report and everybody who made presentations and submissions.

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