Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

We discussed this on Committee Stage. This is the first time we have had this type of legislation. We talked about it for a very long time. I championed it in opposition. I am anxious, having had very detailed discussions with everybody who was concerned about this, to make sure it works. The key issue is what kind of communication we are talking about. We are talking about lobbying, and people understand what that means. Not every piece of communication that happens between staff in a local authority or Government Department is lobbying. They are doing their job; they are not lobbying. If an assistant secretary tells an assistant principal, "This is a policy issue. Do that." that is not lobbying; rather, it is normal working communication.

We have to be practical, as I have said, about the operation of this. To have the net cast in the way the Deputies opposite are now suggesting, even though I understand the reasoning for it, would defeat the purpose because one would not see the wood for the trees. If everything is reported, registered and so on, real lobbying would be difficult to identify. What is the motivation of this Bill and what has motivated other countries? It is to see who is externally influencing or peddling power. It is not to have all of the normal communication of Government Departments or officials at local or national level monitored, as if there was some sort of external oversight of normal communications in a functioning democracy.

As I said, my view is very simple in regard to lobbying. Much lobbying is legitimate and proper. In fact, I have described it as the lifeblood of our democracy. Every citizen should lobby, in terms of the things which concern him or her, whether it is the rate of taxes, the roads or whatever else. That is a fundamental lubricant of our democracy and should be protected.

The Bill is designed to focus and shine the light of day on who in the public domain is having influence on power brokers. The myriad daily communications within and between public sector organisations which would be captured by these amendments, if I accepted them, would overload and clog up the system, and make it unworkable. This exclusion is a common feature of the best legislation we have examined internationally.

I have been working diligently as a Minister to ensure there is a suite of transparency measures. Some of what the Deputies opposite are talking about would be fully captured by FOI. That is the appropriate vehicle to find out what communication, documentation and reports are generated between or within Government and local authorities, if that is what the Deputies are interested in. It does not fit into the category of lobbying. Once cannot slot into the category of lobbying normal communications. Having thought about this long and hard, and having examined the arguments made, I genuinely do not believe that these amendments should be accepted. It would defeat the purpose of the Bill if I did accept them.

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