Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 7, to delete line 32.

Deputy McDonald also tabled these amendments. We are dealing with areas that the Minister has listed as exempted communications. Amendments Nos. 24 to 26, inclusive, cover sections 5(4)(j), 5(4)(k) and 5(4)(l), respectively. Essentially these are exempting from the legislation communications by a designated public official in his capacity in his work, and communications by a person who is employed by, or holds any office in, a public service body and makes a communication which relates to the functions of the public service body in which he or she is employed. Amendment No 26 deals with communications by a person who is a designated public official under the legislation but not specifically employed in a public service body designated under the legislation, notwithstanding that the person is a public official designated under the legislation which relates to the functions of the body.

The definition here is too broad. It reflects the old thinking in public bodies over the years and in government circles nationally and locally for many decades. The law has changed when it comes to planning. There was and still is the hangover of this in the planning area. It is essentially one law for public bodies and a different law for everybody else. The essence of what is exempted should be based on the substance and not on who is making the actual communication.

I draw a parallel. Many years ago many public bodies were exempt from having to submit planning applications. The OPW could do what it liked and could build in the middle of a main street. They were public bodies and therefore they did not have to go through the normal planning process. Fortunately, people became more enlightened over the years and decided that if someone was doing something, we should look at what they were doing. The owner or the proposer of the development is neither here nor there. The question is whether what is being proposed is a good idea. We need to look at the substance of the proposal rather than whether the proposer is a designated body.

Public bodies have to apply for planning permission in many cases. However, we still have situations in the public arena - the same attitude is reflected here - where even local authorities can grant themselves planning permission under certain sections of the legislation for housing development or different items. They do not go through the normal planning process; they just have to go through a so-called "agreement, Part 8". Different local authorities give it different references whether it is based on the section of Act or the subsection of the Act. The members of a local authority can give planning approval, for example, for a housing development or a sewage treatment plant by a local authority and there is no right of appeal to An Bord Pleanála in some of those. I know there is strategic infrastructure and in the case of some large applications, local authorities have to go to An Bord Pleanála. However, many local authorities can still carry out work that in the normal course of events would have to go through the planning process if it were being carried out by anybody other than a local authority.

That attitude permeates the public service and is one of let us have a law for the public out there, but let us not have this law complicating how we in the public service carry on our lives even though we might want to do the same thing. That is what is reflected here. That is the attitude of saying we are public officials doing our duty. We should be exempt from the legislation. That should certainly not be so in my opinion. If what a public body is doing requires it to be exempt, that is fine, but there should not be a blanket exemption for public bodies.

I have not had time to think about it in too much detail.

11 o’clock

A communication from a county manager or director of services in regard to Irish Water is exempt in the Bill, as I read it, because a designated public official - chief executive officer is the new name for county or city managers - who will be captured under the Act might communicate with somebody on matters which relate to the functions of the public service body, that is, the local authority. I hope I am wrong, but my understanding of the amendment is that these type of communications can be excluded.

I refer to local authorities and housing. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government might have a lot of funding to allocate for social housing programmes by 2020. Everything now involves a five-year plan, such as tax, homelessness and housing. Nothing will be done in the next two or three years; it will all be done in five years' time. The Government has a housing plan for social housing. A lot of work will be done by voluntary organisations, such as Respond and Clúid, and housing associations. They are not captured under the Bill, but a local authority which is doing identical work, in terms of providing social housing, can be exempt.

A director of housing can talk to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government about seeking funding for a local authority social housing project and his or her willingness to work with the Department to secure such funding. As he or she is in a public service body and is an employee communicating about his or her functions, he or she would be exempt from the Bill. Respond, Clúid and other housing associations could have the same conversation, but would not have a specific exemption.

I can see that the Minister does not want the normal functions being caught up, but we have included communications where people are looking for factual information. The Minister tabled an amendment on that yesterday, and stated that people seeking factual information should be exempt because that is not really lobbying. That should be broad enough to cover pubic officials who are working within their capacity to seek information in regard to the functions of a public body.

There can be competition between public bodies and relevant Government Departments regarding the allocation of funding. The communications of people working on behalf of a public body, or an official who is a designated person or at that grade, are exempt under the legislation.

We have been too broad in terms of exemptions. I would like to see the Bill more tightly drafted. I understand it should not interfere with the proper working of the organisation, but we have expanded it too much in terms of exemptions. I would like to see more included rather than exempted from the Bill.

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