Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Let me say this: it has been my objective as Minister for Social Protection to protect and safeguard as many defined benefit pension schemes as possible.

Defined benefit schemes have been subject to enormous difficulties at certain stages due to collapses in various international equity markets. We have discussed on many occasions in the House the problems around the cost of buying German bonds. Thankfully, much of the crisis has at least begun to recede, if it has not receded fully. Deputy Boyd Barrett should not fail, as he frequently does, to acknowledge that Ireland has a strong social protection system, so much so that all the international and national evidence shows that poverty risk is reduced in Ireland by the greatest amount in the whole of the EU. That is a result of the strong protections in our social welfare system. I see the Deputy shaking his head as though he cannot believe the facts, but those are the facts.

I note that the function of this particular scheme is to enable the Minister for Finance to draw down moneys from the Central Fund to discharge liabilities which may accrue to the State on the winding up of a defined benefit scheme. This was discussed on a previous occasion in the context of other changes. In this case, the context is protecting as far as possible workers' pension entitlements. That is the purpose of what I am asking Deputies to do in the very unusual circumstance of a double insolvency. A question was asked - perhaps by Deputy Ó Snodaigh - on the potential number of double insolvencies. From the information I have, there are a number of Waterford Crystal schemes, including the one that is currently under the pension insolvency payments scheme, or PIPS. There are 610 pensioner members of the scheme. In terms of the discussions on the Hogan case and its consequences, I am advised that there are 1,774 people who were employees.

In a case of double insolvency, which is thankfully a rare event generally, the company and, separately but at the same time, the pension fund became insolvent during the lifetime of the previous Government. The workers exercised their legal right to take a case through the Irish courts arising from what happened in 2007. It was their right to do that. I have been endeavouring to see the former Waterford Crystal workers obtain a settlement which benefits them and I would appreciate the support of Members in that regard.

I offer my condolences to the family and friends of the former worker who died today. I do not know what the circumstances of the particular individual were, but I note the normal rules to reassure the Deputy in relation to Irish law. If a person has a spouse, the pension rules in particular may or may not provide for that. However, it has been a feature of these cases that the estates of deceased members may well qualify for proportionate shares depending on their particular personal circumstances and the rules of the relevant scheme. I wish to be clear about that, although the Deputy may know more about the individual's circumstances than I do. If the Deputy wants to give me the particular details, we can certainly make inquiries.

Pension schemes are ruled by the trustees under trust law, not centrally by government. The Government oversees public service pensions, but private pension schemes are subject to regulation by laws from the Oireachtas rather than being run directly by the Government, as the Deputy seems to suggest. The amendment is intended to allow the draw-down of funds. I hope it receives the support of the Members here.

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